FRFR Bass Cab Recommendations in 2023

[imjmb]

Hey, gang! Guitar player here, making a post on behalf of my bass playing friend and bandmate.

He's always been an amp and cab guy, and for several years has been using a Eden WTX500 amp. A few years back, however, he blew one of his bass cabs (a Gallien-Krueger NEO410/4). Well, he just blew another cab using the same head (not sure which cab this one was). He doesn't push these cabs to ridiculous volumes, so I can only assume there's something wrong with his amp (feel free to correct me if I'm way off base there).

Either way, I talked him into buying a Helix a few years back, and he's neglected to use or learn it because it's overwhelming for him. Well, now that he's blown a second cab, I'm going to help guide him through the Helix a bit, and I'm trying to talk him into getting some kind of FRFR Cab so he can take full advantage of the unit's capabilities.

That's why I'm here...for your modern and up to date recommendations!

He plays predominately hard rock, with a little metal here and there, and will be playing local bars/clubs, generally with no PA support for the bass, so whatever he uses will have to be able to stand up to being loud enough to fill a decent sized bar without falling apart.

I looked at the Accugroove stuff, but was really surprised to see how expensive they still are. He's not exactly poor, but he's not exactly rolling in it, either.

So what say you, Talk Bass fam?

 

[gtirard]

Following…

Barefaced has great FRFR cabs, but they are passive (I suppose you are looking for active cabs?), and in the same price range approx as the Accugroove stuff.

I guess a FRFR system for bass will be more expensive than the equivalent for 6 strings, because low frequencies require more power.

Maybe active PA speakers would be cheaper, but not all work well for bass.

Anyway, following…

 

[gtirard]

Also, GR Bass AT 212 + Pure Amp would be a great solution in term of performances / weight ratio, but pricey too.

And I wonder: GR Bass claim they provide the "Pure Sound" of your instrument, neutral and uncolored, so it's certainly great to use with a Helix system. But they don't pretend to be FRFR, so I wonder: what difference is there between a "very neutral and uncolored" system and a FRFR system?

 

[imjmb]

Following…

Barefaced has great FRFR cabs, but they are passive (I suppose you are looking for active cabs?), and in the same price range approx as the Accugroove stuff.

I guess a FRFR system for bass will be more expensive than the equivalent for 6 strings, because low frequencies require more power.

Maybe active PA speakers would be cheaper, but not all work well for bass.

Anyway, following…

I think he would be open to having a passive cab, but would also need recommendations for Power Amps then too. I'll throw that in the OP.

Edit. Realizing you can't edit an OP after a while. Whoops

 

[gtirard]

I think he would be open to having a passive cab, but would also need recommendations for Power Amps then too. I'll throw that in the OP.

Edit. Realizing you can't edit an OP after a while. Whoops[/QUOTE

There are few power amps for bass
(you'll find several threads on the topic) and even less affordable ones.

To the point that many of us use regular amp, and plug in the Fx loop return

Look for GSS Sumo

 

[InkCow]

I think @gtirard is on the right track: a Barefaced cab and run the helix into the effects loop in of the Eden. That’s going to be your most economical and versatile option and likely the one with the best chance of success. If you start getting into PA cabs, it may require a lot more trial and error and possibly multiple different cabs, which I suspect might be something to avoid if there’s already some reticence here.

I’m skeptical that there is something wrong with the amp, but it probably would be worthwhile to take it to an amp tech just for peace of mind.

 

[InkCow]

To add: another option would be a fEARful/greenboy cab.

 

[Ulf Buck]

qsc k12.2

 

[InhumanResource]

Playing hard rock and metal without a PA I think you’ll have a hard time without just using a bass amp, and likely a pretty big one.

 

[Redbrangus]

He plays predominately hard rock, with a little metal here and there, and will be playing local bars/clubs, generally with no PA support for the bass, so whatever he uses will have to be able to stand up to being loud enough to fill a decent sized bar without falling apart.

qsc k12.2

IMHO, a powered PA cab will not fulfill the requirements of this user. Period. I agree with @InhumanResource -- only a bass amp and cab will do this job. Using the Eden via the effects loop will probably work, but you need a speaker system that will keep up.

Edit: A regular PA amp would do a better job, but the user still needs a real speaker system. Apparently TWO 410s was not sufficient.

 

[InkCow]

I don’t know if the Helix has a high pass filter, but based on the past experiences documented here I would highly recommend one.

 

[Snipehunter]

qsc k12.2

I actually got one of these recently to use with my HX stomp. Sounds pretty good but it has a spongy feel to it that becomes really noticeable when you slap. There's also an element of ear fatigue I get with it that does not happen with a regular bass amp.

It does sound great when I use my guitar with it though.

 

[gstaats]

Get a pair of barefaced Big Baby 3's. Awesome cabs. Power them with a bridged crown xls-1502. Set the hpf to 30hz. Rock out. Immense power, lots of head room.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

Your bass player buddy may not have anything wrong with his amp:

• I have personally killed expensive drivers with as little as 350 watts by doing dumbass stuff with EQ on a loud stage. Having too much mud below 40Hz is what does it. Combine that with a bloated midbass, and you can pop drivers left, right and center.
• Some of the new NEO subwoofer drivers have amazing output when driven with 500 to 1000 watts, but they will eventually fail due to thermal overload rather than bottoming out. And there's much less warning before they let go.
  
• Also, I learned years ago that there's a huge difference between a good recone, and a hack job by some doofus. You'd be surprised at how many doofii have full-time jobs in the Pro Audio business...

Note the suggestions above about setting up a sharp HPF to get rid of power-robbing subsonics- that applies to old-school bass amps and cabs just as much as it does to modern FRFR and PA gear. 30Hz is a good starting point for basses with a low B, but you can push it up to 40Hz or even a little more with 4-string basses. Duke's cabs are all set for a minus 3dB point around 60Hz (first harmonic of a low B), and they sound like cannons with a good fiver!

High-pass a bass amp right, and it doesn't lose impact- it just gets tighter and more punchy.

 

[gstaats]

Your bass player buddy may not have anything wrong with his amp:

• I have personally killed expensive drivers with as little as 350 watts by doing dumbass stuff with EQ on a loud stage. Having too much mud below 40Hz is what does it. Combine that with a bloated midbass, and you can pop drivers left, right and center.
• Some of the new NEO subwoofer drivers have amazing output when driven with 500 to 1000 watts, but they will eventually fail due to thermal overload rather than bottoming out. And there's much less warning before they let go.
  
• Also, I learned years ago that there's a huge difference between a good recone, and a hack job by some doofus. You'd be surprised at how many doofii have full-time jobs in the Pro Audio business...

Note the suggestions above about setting up a sharp HPF to get rid of power-robbing subsonics- that applies to old-school bass amps and cabs just as much as it does to modern FRFR and PA gear. 30Hz is a good starting point for basses with a low B, but you can push it up to 40Hz or even a little more with 4-string basses.

High-pass a bass amp right, and it doesn't lose impact- it just gets tighter and more punchy.

I love the dsp hpf options on modern poweramps for both pa and bass use cases. There isn't much of a slope for the cut off. I use the hpf on our pa to help protect the mains & subs from over excursion and wasting power on frequencies the cabs can't reproduce.

On my bass cabs, frfr or not, when powering with the crown xls-1502, I'll use a 30hz hpf with my barefaced gear or setup an hpf based on the manufacturer's frequency response spec. No point in sending 40hz to a cab that goes down to 50 hz.

As stated above - one can easily toast a cab b with less than optimal eq. Even though a cab may be rated at 800 watts and has a stated lower frequency response of 50hz, most cabs will be pushed past their mechanical limits by pushing 800 watts of a 50hz signal. There are few full range or frfr cabs that can take that. They exist - I've punished my Barefaced bb3's and they have done great. I can get stupid with the EQ (30hz hpf) and push 1,550 watts into the pair and poweramp clips first. Lol.

 

[Lee Armstrong]

I don’t know if the Helix has a high pass filter, but based on the past experiences documented here I would highly recommend one.

My Stomp XL has several options - I use a simple low-cut/high-cut filter in a few patches I created.

 

[Marko 1]

YMMV, but there isn't anything I would high pass under 50hz, including my bass rig, and I play 5ers.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

I was an early 5-string adopter decades ago, and I've fooled around with a lot of non-bass FRFR stuff over the years, including all the current powered compact PA speakers, and a Bose L1 sytem with third-party subs.

For a good FRFR Bass cab like a Barefaced or a Greenboy (AudioKinesis are amazing, but Duke Lejeune's waiting list is pretty crazy), I would stack two cabs vertically, and go with the 15" or 2*12 woofer option:

• The best part about those boxes isn't just the high output, great low bass extension and broad response- it's the portability factor. They're built using racing yacht and light aircraft technology- thin-wall construction with smart, lightweight bracing. Combined with the latest driver technology, they weigh much less than half of a normal bass cab.
• Important note:
  • Neo FRFR cabs sound amazing, but they're less efficient than old-school cabs.
    
  • Thankfully there are lots of lightweight amp options now, but it's important to be aware that 500 to 1,000 watts is the new 250 to 500...

You can power the stack with the Helix and a medium-power PA power amp, and you'll be off to the races- providing that you and/or your buddy understand the importance of high-pass filtering. Alternatively, you can do the same with the return jacks on a decent high-powered bass head like a G-K MB or Legend 800, Mesa Subway, etc. The bass heads have the advantage that he can ditch the Helix in an emergency (or if he finds that he actually prefers the sound of the new amp)...

 

[steve_rolfeca]

On the other hand, powered compact PA speakers by themselves will NOT move enough air for a gig with a loud rock band and no PA support for the bass. It's important to understand that QSC and the rest are playing a marketing numbers game with power ratings these days:

• There are a bunch of class D "plate amps" that offer two channels of 1,000 watts each, plus some DSP for high-passing, crossover setup, etc., in the digital realm.
  
• They're fairly cheap, modular, and can be tweaked in software to give the designer all sorts of voicing and speaker protection options.
  
• Combine that with a neo midbass driver rated for about 500 Watts continuous connected to one side of the amp, and a 150 watt horn driver.
• Set the DSP to tune it for a pretty flat frequency response between 60Hz and 15K or so, limit the actual output to the drivers to a couple of dB over their power ratings, put it all into a composite box, and you've got a loud, clear, hi-fi sounding cab that doesn't cost or weigh a ton.
  
• In mass production, the profit margin is terrific, which is why you can get a cheap one for half the price of an un-powered Barefaced.

Best of all, the sales team can run ads saying "TWO THOUSAND WATT POWER MODULE ! ! !", and avoid talking about what is actually being fed to the drivers.

All perfectly true, as long as you don't look under the blanket.

All that DSP and driver protection also explains why a QSC K12 sounds so great for prerecorded music, but gets spongy-sounding and gives up surprisingly early when you start to slappa da bass at gig levels.

When it comes to powered PA stuff from the usual suspects (E-V, QSC, Yamaha, etc.), the equivalent of a 500-watt Eden into a pair of good 4*10's would be one or more likely 2 twelve-inch compacts, stacked on top of a hefty powered sub from the same series. The crossover is built into the sub, so you don't need any other external electronics other than the Helix or a pedalboard.

The dispersion would be better than a regular bass 8*10 bass stack, and it would be reliable. But it's a lot of dough, and a lot to transport. Those little powered top bins are easy to schlep, but the sub? Not so much...

For example:

• Two QSC K12.2's ($1K USD each, 39lb each)
• One QSC KS118 powered sub ($2K USD, plywood box, 104lb), or:
• One QSC KS212C Cardiod powered sub ($100 more than the KS118, same 3.6KW nominal plate amp for power, also plywood, 90lb)

In a lot of cases, I'd rather move an Ampeg Fridge than than a powered sub.

It's 33lb heavier than the KS118, but it has built-in casters, the handles are placed where you can grab them without bending down, and there are sliders on the back so you can scrootch it into a truck or up a flight of stairs without having to bear the full weight of the cab.

Also, the optics are helpful:

• Ask for help with an 8*10, and you can guilt-trip most people into giving you a hand.
  
• Ask them to help you with a 31" by 25" cube, and they'll just look at you funny.
  
• Plus, after helping you to lift it up a flight of stairs once, they'll avoid you like the plague.

 

[gstaats]

• The best part about those boxes isn't just the high output, great low bass extension and broad response- it's the portability factor. They're built using racing yacht and light aircraft technology- thin-wall construction with smart, lightweight bracing. Combined with the latest driver technology, they weigh much less than half of a normal bass cab.
• Important note:
  • Neo FRFR cabs sound amazing, but they're less efficient than old-school cabs.
    
  • Thankfully there are lots of lightweight amp options now.....

That is what turned me into barefaced initially is how light they are. I can walk into a gig with my basses on my back, my mesa tt-800 on my shoulder and a big baby 3 in each hand. Single trip with a monstrous rig. I'll never schlep big iron/ boat anchor cabs to a gig again. The whole thing fits in my civic without damaging or wearing out the interior or trunk.