FRFR Bass Cab Recommendations in 2023

[steve_rolfeca]

That is what turned me into barefaced initially is how light they are. I can walk into a gig with my basses on my back, my mesa tt-800 on my shoulder and a big baby 3 in each hand. Single trip with a monstrous rig. I'll never schlep big iron/ boat anchor cabs to a gig again. The whole thing fits in my civic without damaging or wearing out the interior or trunk.

It was the same for me, but coming from the opposite direction.

I would have gladly kept schlepping boat anchor cabs that beat up my back and my vehicles, if they delivered the lower frequencies I needed after switching to 5-string in the 80's.

I wasn't that concerned about weight back then- I had been carrying multiple, heavy birch ply Kroth TL bins loaded with EVM-15B's for a decade or more, but I desperately wanted to hear a more convincing low B, and even expensive 4*10's from companies like SWR lacked the authority I wanted below a low E.

I eventually built an oversized single 15 based on a Thiele alignment that was flat to about 35Hz, using an EVM-15B and an external processor, Since it was just an experiment, I built it from some oak-veneered particle board that somebody gave me.

Finally, I had a really convincing low B and C, but even with a 300 Watt solid-state Marshall Silver Jubilee head, it was only loud enough for small venues and church, and it weighed close to 100lb. Not exactly practical...

When I finally heard about Greenboy and the rest, the fact that the FRFR crowd was producing lightweight boxes was just a bonus!

 

[micguy]

Your assumption that there is something wrong with an amp, just because he has blown some woofers, is probably a poor assumption. If an amp has something wrong with it, it probably won't work for years without any issues, then decide "I'm going to blow woofers tonight" on two separate gigs years apart. It's far more likely that he's playing at levels that the woofers in his cabs can't handle long term.

A FRFR cab may or may not be an advantage over a bass guitar cabinet - it depends on which particular pieces of gear you're comparing. I play ampless gigs all the time, so I'm being heard through PA gear, but if we look at one of my recent gigs, in a mid sized place (1200 seats), there were 7 sub cabs, each with dual 18 woofers - probably somewhere on the order of 20KW of power driving them. Nice, full, ground shaking low end, and no woofers blown. So, can you play through PA gear, be heard well, and not blow woofers? Yes.

The practical question, however, is: can you play through PA gear that will fit in your car, be heard, and not blow drivers? The answer to that is far less obvious - if you're blowing woofers in bass cabs, you have to look at the maximum output capabilities of whatever gear you're pondering, to see if it's substantially more capable than the gear that hasn't been holding up.

One further note: using the Helix is a red herring/distraction as far as the topic at hand - it may be a good move for other reasons, but using it vs an amp has nothing to do with blowing woofers.

 

[micguy]

YMMV, but there isn't anything I would high pass under 50hz, including my bass rig, and I play 5ers.

For a bass amp, that makes perfect sense - there aren't bass guitar cabinets that really do much below that frequency (a lot of them don't even do 50Hz well). If you're being heard through a PA with very capable subs, the high pass frequency can be moved considerably lower - how much lower depends on what particular subs are in the system.

 

[bassbrad]

I was using an Alto 15" powered speaker (tsl215) with satisfactory results, loud enough for rock defined enough for jazz.

 

[semiprohooker]

I run a QSC K12.2 as my "FRFR" for bass and guitar. The Yamaha 15 was much better sounding for bass IMO but was terrible on the guitar. I don't know how big the venues ya'll play are but one would be plenty for stage monitoring, but to fill a room I would probably want at least two. And having gigged an 810 for years... If you have an easy way to transport it (truck, van, etc.), I'd rather put my money in one of those than two powered speakers. They're way easier to schlep around than people anticipate because of the dolly bar and wheels and sliders on the back.

 

[Marko 1]

For a bass amp, that makes perfect sense - there aren't bass guitar cabinets that really do much below that frequency (a lot of them don't even do 50Hz well). If you're being heard through a PA with very capable subs, the high pass frequency can be moved considerably lower - how much lower depends on what particular subs are in the system.

Again, YMMV, but imo neither bass nor kick drum need it lower than 50hz, and it's not a brick-wall limit, so there'll still be some mud under wherever it's set.

My subs are JBL PRX618XLFs which are what I'd consider very capable, and I still don't think super-low frequencies are necessary, or even sound good (unless maybe DJing hip hop music), and in some rooms (and some audiences), might end up being problematic.

Again, just my humble opinion.

 

[pfschim]

IMHO, a powered PA cab will not fulfill the requirements of this user. Period. I agree with @InhumanResource -- only a bass amp and cab will do this job. Using the Eden via the effects loop will probably work, but you need a speaker system that will keep up.

Edit: A regular PA amp would do a better job, but the user still needs a real speaker system. Apparently TWO 410s was not sufficient.

Hey Red, have you looked at the Accurgroove FRFR cabs. They have the El Whappo FRFR option. It's a 15" sub + 12" mid-woofer + 6" mid driver + 2 soft dome tweeters, paired with an 800w power amp. Specs say 35hz-18kHz @ 102dB. I've owned an Accurgroove Tri112 way back, and it sounded very good ... very much like a studio monitor type sound. I'm guessing one of these would work well as a FRFR bass cab for most things. Two would really kill. Kinda pricey though.

AccuGroove El Whappo Bass Cabinet – AccuGrooveLLC

 

[micguy]

27473797[/URL], member: 140885"]Again, YMMV, but imo neither bass nor kick drum need it lower than 50hz, and it's not a brick-wall limit, so there'll still be some mud under wherever it's set.

My subs are JBL PRX618XLFs which are what I'd consider very capable, and I still don't think super-low frequencies are necessary, or even sound good (unless maybe DJing hip hop music), and in some rooms (and some audiences), might end up being problematic.

Again, just my humble opinion.

Your JBL’s have a -3dB point of 39 Hz, with a kilowatt driving a single 18. Good if you want to move them around in a personal vehicle, but not in the same class as the subs that tours or some high end venues use.

Our mileages definitely vary. Once you play through a well set up system with very capable subs, your viewpoint on low frequency stuff changes. 30 Hz reproduced cleanly is not at all muddy, it’s awesome. Unfortunately, after that experience, a bass amp (any bass amp) is dissapointing.

 

[Redbrangus]

Hey Red, have you looked at the Accurgroove FRFR cabs. They have the El Whappo FRFR option. It's a 15" sub + 12" mid-woofer + 6" mid driver + 2 soft dome tweeters, paired with an 800w power amp. Specs say 35hz-18kHz @ 102dB. I've owned an Accurgroove Tri112 way back, and it sounded very good ... very much like a studio monitor type sound. I'm guessing one of these would work well as a FRFR bass cab for most things. Two would really kill. Kinda pricey though.

AccuGroove El Whappo Bass Cabinet – AccuGrooveLLC

Yeah, I've looked at their stuff and it looks like a good approach. One 800-watt amp into a 3-way+tweeters compliment of drivers doesn't seem like nearly enough power to me, but it probably rocks pretty well. As it should for $2.5K per cab. But it's a specialty bass product, not a powered PA cab like the QSC K-12.2 that was referenced.

 

[Marko 1]

Your JBL’s have a -3dB point of 39 Hz, with a kilowatt driving a single 18. Good if you want to move them around in a personal vehicle, but not in the same class as the subs that tours or some high end venues use.

Our mileages definitely vary. Once you play through a well set up system with very capable subs, your viewpoint on low frequency stuff changes. 30 Hz reproduced cleanly is not at all muddy, it’s awesome. Unfortunately, after that experience, a bass amp (any bass amp) is dissapointing.

Fair enough... I'm a weekend warrior band/PA guy and my idea of "capable" is obviously different from yours.

If I get "very capable" subs (I won't actually) I'll keep what you said in mind.

 

[sgiacomo]

He plays predominately hard rock, with a little metal here and there, and will be playing local bars/clubs, generally with no PA support for the bass, so whatever he uses will have to be able to stand up to being loud enough to fill a decent sized bar without falling apart.

Easy peasy: Ampeg 810 aka the fridge

 

[gstaats]

Easy peasy: Ampeg 810 aka the fridge

Running a helix through an 810 would defeat the purpose of the helix. Fridges color the tone a lot. If that is the tone one wants, go for it. The OP specifically asked about an FRFR cab which the fridge is definitely not. Something like a pair (use one for smaller venues) of Barefaced BB3s or a single Big Twin will faithfully reproduce the helix with very little coloration. They will be easier to move than a fridge, lighter and out perform a fridge in nearly everyway.

 

[naetog]

If he's blowing up multiple cabs, he's probably going to blow up any FRFR cab he gets.
Just because the response is wider doesn't mean it's invincible.

He needs to figure out what he's doing with his amp that's causing the issue.
How's his EQ set?

I ran Acme cabs for YEARS with a metal band.
They are not nearly as loud or sensitive as many cabs out there, but they were more than capable.
I still have one as a backup/second cab/random jam unit, and it still thumps despite being 20 years old.

 

[sgiacomo]

Running a helix through an 810 would defeat the purpose of the helix. Fridges color the tone a lot. If that is the tone one wants, go for it. The OP specifically asked about an FRFR cab which the fridge is definitely not. Something like a pair (use one for smaller venues) of Barefaced BB3s or a single Big Twin will faithfully reproduce the helix with very little coloration. They will be easier to move than a fridge, lighter and out perform a fridge in nearly everyway.

Ok

 

[silky smoove]

If he's blowing up multiple cabs, he's probably going to blow up any FRFR cab he gets.
Just because the response is wider doesn't mean it's invincible.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[imjmb]

Wow. Such an abundance of information, it's almost overwhelming, in the best way possible.
Thanks folks...I'll try to address the responses that need addressing.

I’m skeptical that there is something wrong with the amp, but it probably would be worthwhile to take it to an amp tech just for peace of mind.

I may try to have him take the amp in to be looked at, as you said, just in case. Though, at 500W, perhaps it might be worth him getting something beefier anyway?

Edit: A regular PA amp would do a better job, but the user still needs a real speaker system. Apparently TWO 410s was not sufficient.

We're open to suggestions if you've got any.

One further note: using the Helix is a red herring/distraction as far as the topic at hand - it may be a good move for other reasons, but using it vs an amp has nothing to do with blowing woofers.

I'm aware that the Helix itself has nothing to do with blowing woofers. My thought process is that it could potentially kill 2 birds with one stone. I'm realizing through these responses, however, that the situation may be more nuanced than I had realized...a piece of enlightenment that I'm grateful for.

He needs to figure out what he's doing with his amp that's causing the issue.
How's his EQ set?

Truthfully, he's not the tone monger that I am, so I imagine how he sets his EQ depends on his mood. I try to encourage a more Geddy Lee type sound...something that holds the bottom end without being flubby or boomy, but cuts through so I can hear what he's doing. Unfortunately, during our recent audition, his cab was farting on occasion. Not all the time, but definitely enough to be noticed, and more frequently as the day went on.

Something worthy of note, playing at a place with 1,000+ people is kind of a dream in our case. Reality is, throughout the year the places we play will probably have a maximum occupancy of 300 people, give or take. Much larger than that, and we certainly hope to be in a position where the provided PA will be able to support ALL of the instruments. That said, I would HOPE that most any decent 4x10 with a decent amp behind it would suffice for full band volume in smaller venues during the year. But again, I'm a guitar player, and I could very well be wrong...I'll rely on you guys to tell me.

It's starting to seem like the most cost effective and long-term beneficial way of doing this would be for him to get a new bass cab, and either run the Helix into the FX Loop of his 500W Eden WTX500, or get some kind of clean poweramp, like the Crown XLS-1502 which was mentioned previously.
If that is to be the case, what I've taken from this is that it would be a good safety measure to HPF 50hz or so, in an effort to protect the life of the cab. Do I have all of that correct so far?

Additionally, how should one measure the wattage of an amp compared to the cab(s) in use?
As an example, his Eden head is 500W, but the cab he was previously using (Gallien-Krueger NEO410/4) was 800W. My understanding is that while a 500W head would never be able to push the cab to its fullest potential, it shouldn't do any harm in the meantime, right?

Lastly, someone in my area has a set of Peavey Headliner cabs for sale. A 4x10, a 1x15 and a 2x10, all for $500. They seem to be in really good shape, but I don't know anything about those cabs or if they're a decent value for what we're looking to do. Reviews seem solid, but again, I trust you guys will steer me into or away from them if they're worth/not worth it.
I am aware, however, that these are all 8ohm cabs, whereas his Eden head is 4ohm, so I imagine that wouldn't be a great combination. Additionally, the 410 is 800W, the 115 500W and the 210 is 400W. How powerful of an amp would he even need to utilize these??

Sorry for what almost certainly appears as total newb-ish questions, but I do appreciate all of the years of experience and insight you guys bring to the discussion. Seriously, it means a lot.

 

[Stinga1990]

On the other hand, powered compact PA speakers by themselves will NOT move enough air for a gig with a loud rock band and no PA support for the bass. It's important to understand that QSC and the rest are playing a marketing numbers game with power ratings these days:

• There are a bunch of class D "plate amps" that offer two channels of 1,000 watts each, plus some DSP for high-passing, crossover setup, etc., in the digital realm.
  
• They're fairly cheap, modular, and can be tweaked in software to give the designer all sorts of voicing and speaker protection options.
  
• Combine that with a neo midbass driver rated for about 500 Watts continuous connected to one side of the amp, and a 150 watt horn driver.
• Set the DSP to tune it for a pretty flat frequency response between 60Hz and 15K or so, limit the actual output to the drivers to a couple of dB over their power ratings, put it all into a composite box, and you've got a loud, clear, hi-fi sounding cab that doesn't cost or weigh a ton.
  
• In mass production, the profit margin is terrific, which is why you can get a cheap one for half the price of an un-powered Barefaced.

Best of all, the sales team can run ads saying "TWO THOUSAND WATT POWER MODULE ! ! !", and avoid talking about what is actually being fed to the drivers.

All perfectly true, as long as you don't look under the blanket.

All that DSP and driver protection also explains why a QSC K12 sounds so great for prerecorded music, but gets spongy-sounding and gives up surprisingly early when you start to slappa da bass at gig levels.

When it comes to powered PA stuff from the usual suspects (E-V, QSC, Yamaha, etc.), the equivalent of a 500-watt Eden into a pair of good 4*10's would be one or more likely 2 twelve-inch compacts, stacked on top of a hefty powered sub from the same series. The crossover is built into the sub, so you don't need any other external electronics other than the Helix or a pedalboard.

The dispersion would be better than a regular bass 8*10 bass stack, and it would be reliable. But it's a lot of dough, and a lot to transport. Those little powered top bins are easy to schlep, but the sub? Not so much...

For example:

• Two QSC K12.2's ($1K USD each, 39lb each)
• One QSC KS118 powered sub ($2K USD, plywood box, 104lb), or:
• One QSC KS212C Cardiod powered sub ($100 more than the KS118, same 3.6KW nominal plate amp for power, also plywood, 90lb)

In a lot of cases, I'd rather move an Ampeg Fridge than than a powered sub.

It's 33lb heavier than the KS118, but it has built-in casters, the handles are placed where you can grab them without bending down, and there are sliders on the back so you can scrootch it into a truck or up a flight of stairs without having to bear the full weight of the cab.

Also, the optics are helpful:

• Ask for help with an 8*10, and you can guilt-trip most people into giving you a hand.
  
• Ask them to help you with a 31" by 25" cube, and they'll just look at you funny.
  
• Plus, after helping you to lift it up a flight of stairs once, they'll avoid you like the plague.

I prefer and use a Yamaha DXR15. Much more effortless amplification compared to the QSC, and very underrated as an frfr solution for bass. Sounds and feels like a real amp when fed a good modelling solution, and is loud enough for a small room without PA support. Or, I have enough firepower to make my drummer uncomfortable.

 

[gstaats]

Additionally, how should one measure the wattage of an amp compared to the cab(s) in use?
As an example, his Eden head is 500W, but the cab he was previously using (Gallien-Krueger NEO410/4) was 800W. My understanding is that while a 500W head would never be able to push the cab to its fullest potential, it shouldn't do any harm in the meantime, right?

One can blow a driver in that setup. Most cabs aren't rated at "full spectrum" power. Crank the bass on an active preamp, crank the bass on the head and chug along in the lower register and one most likely will blow a driver in short order.

 

[pfschim]

That is what turned me into barefaced initially is how light they are. I can walk into a gig with my basses on my back, my mesa tt-800 on my shoulder and a big baby 3 in each hand. Single trip with a monstrous rig. I'll never schlep big iron/ boat anchor cabs to a gig again. The whole thing fits in my civic without damaging or wearing out the interior or trunk.

have Barefaced changed their cab exterior treatment ? I recall seeing, and trying out, a Barefaced Big Twin at the old (now long gone) Bassplayer Magazine offices in the Bay Area several years ago. The cab sounded fine, but I was surprised at how sharp/rough the cab exterior was ... and thinking it would really be hard on any part of my car as far as transportation went.

 

[gstaats]

have Barefaced changed their cab exterior treatment ? I recall seeing, and trying out, a Barefaced Big Twin at the old (now long gone) Bassplayer Magazine offices in the Bay Area several years ago. The cab sounded fine, but I was surprised at how sharp/rough the cab exterior was ... and thinking it would really be hard on any part of my car as far as transportation went.

I keep mine in covers during transit. Doesn't feel sharp to me. I'll grab a pic in a few.