gas prices

[Rusty Chainsaw]

Just to follow up my previous post, I think the problem in the US regarding smaller cars is the mindset that bigger = better. Most small European cars are built to pretty high standards in terms of equipment, fit and finish and so on, which prices them above most of their US competitors, and Americans basically just won't pay midsize money for a compact car. Until now, that is.

The other fallacy I hear a lot is that European cars are less safe because they're not built to survive being hit by an Explorer or Suburban. No, they're built to survive being hit by a semi truck, which, last time I checked, is considerably bigger and heavier than any bloated SUV.

 

[Sadowsky_Nut]

While diesel engines have cleaned up in the last 10 years, that doesn't mean that all diesel cars that are 10+ years old are now off the roads in Europe.

Consider the following:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/natural_hazards_v2.php3?img_id=13294

http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0812-smog-blankets-alps/

Where does that smog come from if all cars and trucks are clean burning, and efficient? I wonder how many people in these parts of Europe actually remember what the night sky looks like?

Just... wow. Talk about misinformed.

Your analysis of diesel cars would have been accurate 10 years ago, but it doesn't hold up nowadays. Modern diesel engines are just as clean as an equivalent petrol engines (modern diesels have had very effective particulate filters on them for quite a few years now), far torquier, return 30%-40% better fuel economy than an equivalent petrol engine and often have much longer service intervals. They're just as quiet these days too. They just haven't taken off in the US because of the lack of availability, until recently, of low sulphur diesel, and the different criteria used for emissions here, not to mention a perception of diesel as the preserve of trucks and tractors (a perception you obviously share).

As for European cars being unusable in the States... absolute rubbish. Firstly, your point about safety... the Euro/NCAP safety tests are more stringent than the NHTSA tests in terms of vehicular impacts, plus they also test for pedestrian impacts, which the NHTSA tests kinda skirt over. I'd go as far as to say that most Europe-produced cars are actually safer than their US equivalents. Plus, you'll find safety equipment such as ABS, EBD, traction control, curtain airbags, etc installed as standard equipment in almost all European cars, where they're often only sold as options on US cars. And, as for the size thing, not everyone drives sub-compacts! There are quite a few around, but I'd say the typical size car you'll see in Europe will be something along the lines of a Mazda3 or Cobalt, with larger families driving smaller MPV-style vehicles - the nearest equivalent sold in the US would be the Mazda5. These all have plenty of room for 5 people (and, in some cases, 7 people) and all their stuff. You don't see big SUVs or trucks there, mostly because they're a) too thirsty, and b) they just don't fit on the roads.

And I have no idea where you got the idea that European cities have a smog problem... I used to live in London and haven't seen smog since I was a little kid, nor have I ever seen smog in any other European capital I've ever been to, including hotter cities like Madrid.

The vast majority of problematic diesel emissions come from older diesel trucks and buses that were never fitted with catalytic converters or particulate filters - not from diesel cars. If you got rid of those old vehicles (or even upgraded them), you'd eliminate 99% of the problem right there.

 

[Sadowsky_Nut]

I think they're generally considered as "compacts", with the likes of the Toyota Yaris, Mini, Honda Fit, etc considered as "sub-compacts". But, regardless of semantics, they're more than sufficient, size-wise, for everyday family use.

...in your opinion.

 

[Rusty Chainsaw]

While diesel engines have cleaned up in the last 10 years, that doesn't mean that all diesel cars that are 10+ years old are now off the roads in Europe.

Consider the following:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/natural_hazards_v2.php3?img_id=13294

http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0812-smog-blankets-alps/

Where does that smog come from if all cars and trucks are clean burning, and efficient? I wonder how many people in these parts of Europe actually remember what the night sky looks like?

I've never had a problem seeing the night sky anywhere I've been... unless it was raining.

Like I said, old trucks and buses - diesel vehicles built before mandatory emissions controls. There's a surprising amount of them still around. Not to mention the abundance of old coal-fired power stations in some of Europe's less affluent areas. These are far more polluting than any number of modern diesel-engined cars.

I maintain, if you scrapped all vehicles that were over 15 years old (possibly excluding occasional-use classics) you'd clean up the vast majority of nasty vehicle-based emissions in one fell swoop.

 

[burk48237]

Just to follow up my previous post, I think the problem in the US regarding smaller cars is the mindset that bigger = better. Most small European cars are built to pretty high standards in terms of equipment, fit and finish and so on, which prices them above most of their US competitors, and Americans basically just won't pay midsize money for a compact car. Until now, that is.

The other fallacy I hear a lot is that European cars are less safe because they're not built to survive being hit by an Explorer or Suburban. No, they're built to survive being hit by a semi truck, which, last time I checked, is considerably bigger and heavier than any bloated SUV.

Not completely true. Many Americans drive much longer commutes, in cities with poor or no mass transit, especially when you get away from the coasts. Also if you live in a northern clime, you have to deal with roads that a far worse then most European roads. Longer wheelbases make those longer commutes far more comfortable. Plus many Americans vacation and hobby with outdoor sports which are much more accessible in the states. Family boating, camping and fishing while available in Europe are far less common. These pursuits also require a larger vehicle. Their aren't any compact European cars that will take a family of four on a camping trip pulling a ski boat.

 

[Rusty Chainsaw]

...in your opinion.

Which is equal to yours.

As far as the size thing goes, this is according to my father-in-law (a ASE-certified mechanic), who, I rather think, should know this stuff.

 

[Rusty Chainsaw]

Not completely true. Many Americans drive much longer commutes, in cities with poor or no mass transit, especially when you get away from the coasts. Also if you live in a northern clime, you have to deal with roads that a far worse then most European roads. Longer wheelbases make those longer commutes far more comfortable. Plus many Americans vacation and hobby with outdoor sports which are much more accessible in the states. Family boating, camping and fishing while available in Europe are far less common. These pursuits also require a larger vehicle. Their aren't any compact European cars that will take a family of four on a camping trip pulling a ski boat.

I'm well aware of the longer commute thing... up until recently, I was doing 80 miles a day to work and back. Doing a much more manageable 30 miles now though. Yes, comfort is important in that kind of environment, but I've been just as comfortable in smaller vehicles. And as for the bad roads, you've obviously never been to rural Ireland in mid-winter. Tiny, slippery, unpaved roads abound. My little 1.2-litre Fiat Punto coped admirably with those treacherous surroundings. A manual gearbox did help, though.

And I'm not sure you're right about the outdoor sports thing - these things are just as popular and accessible in Europe, in some cases, even more so. I've seen smaller European cars towing boats, horse boxes, caravans/trailers, etc without any issue, complete with a full complement of passengers. Diesels are particularly well suited to this, because of their much higher torque. You do not need a huge SUV or pickup truck for this kind of thing. Our old neighbour in the UK used to tow a 4-horse horsebox, fully loaded with four 16-hand-plus horses, with a 2-litre diesel Ford Mondeo, at highway speeds.

 

[mike_v_s]

The semantics of what is adequate for who aside, the EPA classifies vehicles with interior volume of more than 85 or 86 cu. ft and less than 100 cu. ft as "subcompacts". Specs on both these models wil show that is where they fall. Our system of vehicle classification varies from Europe's.

Mike

 

[Tsal]

Well, here's an urban commuter for you gas price worriers. A old Fiat 500 converted to a full electric simply by replacing the engine with a 10kW electric motor. Original gearbox et al. Goes up to 60 MPH, gets about 60-70 miles per charging. Safety? Probably not included

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3275

 

[Bassic83]

Well, here's an urban commuter for you gas price worriers. A old Fiat 500 converted to a full electric simply by replacing the engine with a 10kW electric motor. Original gearbox et al. Goes up to 60 MPH, gets about 60-70 miles per charging. Safety? Probably not included

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3275

If that model comes with that car, I think most of us would provide our OWN "safety"...

 

[bmc]

Here's a shot of the car I use to/from work. It's no longer made and was never shipped to North America. It's a four door Smart car called the Forfour. Many reviews have said it was the best Smart made. The four of us are six feet tall. That car can comfortably accomodate us. Not meant for long journeys. You can always find parking, which is a pain in Europe.

The car has a 1.0 Liter, 3 cylinder, 64 hp motor. With four of us on board, it can easily cruise at 160 km/hr (100mph). Surprisingly cavernous inside. Runs on fumes. Sounds like an old Fiat and corners like a Porsche. Twice I put it into a four wheel skind taking corners too fast intentionally. Both times, the car was fully controllable. The car has a lot of character.

The photo isn't my car. Mine is black. I get roughly 55 miles per gallon.

I can carry my 1-15 speaker, head, two basses, two light stands, cables, mic stand and carry a passenger.

 

[mike_v_s]

Here's a shot of the car I use to/from work. It's no longer made and was never shipped to North America. It's a four door Smart car called the Forfour. Many reviews have said it was the best Smart made. The four of us are six feet tall. That car can comfortably accomodate us. Not meant for long journeys. You can always find parking, which is a pain in Europe.

The car has a 1.0 Liter, 3 cylinder, 64 hp motor. With four of us on board, it can easily cruise at 160 km/hr (100mph). Surprisingly cavernous inside. Runs on fumes. Sounds like an old Fiat and corners like a Porsche. Twice I put it into a four wheel skind taking corners too fast intentionally. Both times, the car was fully controllable. The car has a lot of character.

The photo isn't my car. Mine is black. I get roughly 55 miles per gallon.

I can carry my 1-15 speaker, head, two basses, two light stands, cables, mic stand and carry a passenger.

Nice looking car. I'd have considered it when I bought my commuter. I just needed good mileage and the ability to haul 4 and groceries in a pinch. I pass a 2 door every evening on the way home. I'm not sure I'd ever drive that model.

Mike

 

[Bassic83]

I've seen four or five of the ForTwo's on the road here in Houston...all I gotta say is, the people who drive them have huevos the size of church bells! Those things are TINY! I'd love to take one for a spin, they sure are head-turners!

For me, my little four-door Metro is a great little car. 40-ish mpg, I can fit my 1210, my 410L (both Schroeders), two or three basses, my rack, my gig bag, my mic stand, my LMII, and my cart and still have room for my wife to fit in there. I have even had that load in there and had to take a monitor from one of the guitards, plus his guitar, his gigbag, and his Bassman head (his dad was in hospital getting ready to die that night, I took as much of his gear as I could, the rest went in the other guitard's Burb (his cab, mic stand, and something else that I can't remember now). It amazes people how much I can fit in there, it even amazes me!

 

[Rusty Chainsaw]

Here's a shot of the car I use to/from work. It's no longer made and was never shipped to North America. It's a four door Smart car called the Forfour. Many reviews have said it was the best Smart made. The four of us are six feet tall. That car can comfortably accomodate us. Not meant for long journeys. You can always find parking, which is a pain in Europe.

The car has a 1.0 Liter, 3 cylinder, 64 hp motor. With four of us on board, it can easily cruise at 160 km/hr (100mph). Surprisingly cavernous inside. Runs on fumes. Sounds like an old Fiat and corners like a Porsche. Twice I put it into a four wheel skind taking corners too fast intentionally. Both times, the car was fully controllable. The car has a lot of character.

The photo isn't my car. Mine is black. I get roughly 55 miles per gallon.

I can carry my 1-15 speaker, head, two basses, two light stands, cables, mic stand and carry a passenger.

Good little cars, those ForFours. The best part is, remember who makes Smart cars... it's basically a small Mercedes! Same deal with the Mini... basically a small BMW. They're great little cars, if a little impractical when it comes to lugging bass gear around.

 

[Bassic83]

I'd like to see a diesel-hybrid. I heard that one was in pre-production somewhere, but I can't for the life of me remember who it was. Something like 80+ mpg.

Gas prices are at $3.72/gal nationally, today, and rising. I think the top for this year will be about $4.80. I don't think it'll be long before it is in the realm of $10-15/gal though. Maybe 2-3 years.

 

[Rusty Chainsaw]

I've seen four or five of the ForTwo's on the road here in Houston...all I gotta say is, the people who drive them have huevos the size of church bells! Those things are TINY! I'd love to take one for a spin, they sure are head-turners!

They're actually very safe, considering the size of them. They're very well equipped with safety technology.

This website is pretty cool... it dispels many of the myths that abound about the Smart.

http://www.truthaboutsmart.co.uk/

 

[Rusty Chainsaw]

I'd like to see a diesel-hybrid. I heard that one was in pre-production somewhere, but I can't for the life of me remember who it was. Something like 80+ mpg.

Gas prices are at $3.72/gal nationally, today, and rising. I think the top for this year will be about $4.80. I don't think it'll be long before it is in the realm of $10-15/gal though. Maybe 2-3 years.

I know Peugeot and Citroen in France are researching diesel hybrids... I remember reading about a prototype diesel hybrid Peugeot 307 that pulled around 80mpg (69mpg US). I found an article on it:

Link Removed

 

[Bassic83]

I know Peugeot and Citroen in France are researching diesel hybrids... I remember reading about a prototype diesel hybrid Peugeot 307 that pulled around 80mpg (69mpg US). I found an article on it:

Link Removed

I think that's the one...thanks!

 

[Bass Boy]

Here's a shot of the car I use to/from work. It's no longer made and was never shipped to North America. It's a four door Smart car called the Forfour. Many reviews have said it was the best Smart made. The four of us are six feet tall. That car can comfortably accomodate us. Not meant for long journeys. You can always find parking, which is a pain in Europe.

The car has a 1.0 Liter, 3 cylinder, 64 hp motor. With four of us on board, it can easily cruise at 160 km/hr (100mph). Surprisingly cavernous inside. Runs on fumes. Sounds like an old Fiat and corners like a Porsche. Twice I put it into a four wheel skind taking corners too fast intentionally. Both times, the car was fully controllable. The car has a lot of character.

The photo isn't my car. Mine is black. I get roughly 55 miles per gallon.

I can carry my 1-15 speaker, head, two basses, two light stands, cables, mic stand and carry a passenger.

Very cool Brian! I wish they would put the four door out in Canada.

 

[bmc]

They stopped making them in 2006.

If you wish to see yet another snappy Smart car, that has also been discontinued, is the Roadster.

This little puppy gets 55mpg and has paddle shifters. The 100hp Brabus version is a scream to drive. It's not a lot of power, but for a car this size, it moves.

The car either has a retractable roof or panel roof. Tight on space. Cheap on insurance and gas.