Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0 volume question

[CaptainWally]

I've seen a couple of threads regarding comparisons between the volume of the LM2 and the 6.0. It was properly noted that the position of the vol/gain knobs is arbitrary, and knob position shouldn't be considered in comparisons.

My M.O. has always been to turn up the volume of the amp to 50% max, and I've lived by the adage that if you need to go past 50% volume, you need a louder amp. In thinking about it, I guess this is probably old school nonsense.

Can Genz comment? How hard is it advisable to drive a 6.0? If I'm running 100% at all times, what will this mean for the amp?

Cheers!

 

[Crabby]

I have used a 6.0 extensively for the past few yearts in a loud three piece band. i run the pre amp gain very hot with the tube gain up to 3/4 and the volume up about 2/3. I leave everything flat and then have some mids boosted. I would then run the master at exactly noon (halfway) and found that with this setup, my master clip light was coming on when digging in and hitting some harder notes but my tone was all good with no sign of bad tone, clipping or damage to speakers.

Setup like this the Shuttle was loud, growly and extremely cutting. It wasn't particularly deep sounding but the guys in the band loved how well I cur through and could be heard. I experimented with turning the master up louder but found that the amp simply didn't get any louder after about halfway up.

I believe I was pushing the amp to its volume limit and set the tone and preamp controls up to maximize punch and volume without wasting headroom on extended low end. You have to use your ears and experiment with each amo to find the real sweet spot. I loved how simple the 6.0 was to set up.

 

[Brado]

I used to own a Shuttle 6.0. I did many loud gigs with it. All it did was crank the master volume, turn up the "volume" knob (on the input section) to about noon & turn up the gain until I was loud enough. Usually, this was about noon on the gain knob as well...My reason for doing it that way was that I wanted a very clean tone...no distortion or breakup. It worked like a charm (I was running an Accu Groove Tri112 cab). If I ever wanted distortion, I could crank the gain & back off the volume/ get that tube saturation from the input stage. I did that a few times in the studio. I now own a Shuttle 9.0. I'm running it into an Accu Groove Tri115. I did a gig last night with it/ running stage volume at a jazz club. I ended up running the master volume at about 2 o'clock/ the "volume" & "gain" on the input section were at noon. Plenty loud & PUNCHY!! I dig the extra headroom the 9.0 delivers. I guess to answer your question.....you can pretty much run it however you want. Whatever works for you & sounds good is what you should do. In my experience; to get the most out of an amp (be it a power amp or an integrated head), open up the master voume (gain or volume on a power amp) and turn your input gain up until you're loud enough. "100%" can mean a lot of different things for different players. It depends on the cab/ cabs your using/ the bass/ the pedals/ anything else in the chain. So long as you're not clipping the 6.0 (with every note), you should be able to push the thing pretty hard. I did mine & it never missed a beat. It sounded as good the day I sold it as it did the day I bought it.

 

[CaptainWally]

off topic, but is the 9.0 worth the upgrade?

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

IME owning both the Shuttle 6 and LMII at the same time the LMII is definitely capable of more volume. At the time I had both amps my cab was an epifani 8 ohm ul115. With the shuttle I felt like I needed more vol then the amp could give me. With the LMII I was completely satisfied.

 

[gregbackstrom]

off topic, but is the 9.0 worth the upgrade?

I have--and love--both amps. The 9.0 seems to be voiced a little deeper, but you can easily make the 6.0 pretty full sounding too.

Try this: Turn the low control up 3 or 4 clicks, turn the mid freq all the way counter-clockwise (150 Hz) and turn the mid control up 3 or 4 clicks.

Now turn your volume all the way up, your master volume at 3 o'clock, and start turning up the gain until you're loud enough (or too loud).

Does it seem like it has enough umph now? If not, get the 9.0!

Of course, YMMV!
Greg

 

[B String]

off topic, but is the 9.0 worth the upgrade?

In my opinion..ABSOLUTELY!
I'm doing a thing I used to do with my old Walter Woods head.
I'm turning the bass down a few clicks and engaging the low
boost. Maybe adding a touch at about 300hz. Very punchy.
Very full and punchy. But this sucks up a lot of extra power.
The 9.0 has it. To me, its a deeper, fatter, louder, warmer 6.0
Good upgrade I think.

 

[Taz_60]

Please excuse my english...

The 6.0 is way loud enough. It never let me down: with one Aggie GS112NT (the amp running at 8ohms, 375w...), I never had to push the master volume at more than 1/2 (and that's a HUGE euphemism), in a loud trio, with preamp section (gain and volume) at noon both.

I never tried a 9.0 though. But a 6.0 running at 4 ohm should be very very loud.

 

[agedhorse]

I've seen a couple of threads regarding comparisons between the volume of the LM2 and the 6.0. It was properly noted that the position of the vol/gain knobs is arbitrary, and knob position shouldn't be considered in comparisons.

My M.O. has always been to turn up the volume of the amp to 50% max, and I've lived by the adage that if you need to go past 50% volume, you need a louder amp. In thinking about it, I guess this is probably old school nonsense.

Can Genz comment? How hard is it advisable to drive a 6.0? If I'm running 100% at all times, what will this mean for the amp?

Cheers!

Good question, and I think this applies to many other products as well.

Knob position has nothing do do with the amount of power an amp is delivering, nor does it cause an amp to work an harder. What it does affect is the overall voltage gain from input to output.

With the wide range of pickups now available, amp designers must make a choice of what range their amps will effectively cover. Since our amps tend to be used by more advanced players, and more professional applications, we have paid close attention to some of the very hot pickups being used and have chosen to scale our gain structure so that these users have adequate headroom to avoid overload.

This is not the case with all amps on the market, so users orf high output basses should be sure that there is adequate volume/gain control range (and design features) to allow proper operation without unintended distortion.

The knob positions that I choose end up being roughly the 12:00 position for the average bass output but if a bass has lower output then the knobs may be turned up higher to compensate. There is no problem whatsoever in doing this. In fact, I think we recommend the typical operating positions of the volume and master volume controls to be in the ~10:00-3:00 position. Had we scaled the knobs the other way, then we would have compromised the overload headroom for those of you using hot active basses. Once the signal is overloaded because of inadequate headroom, the clarity can never be recovered.

Hope this helps.

 

[noahw1]

Thanks AgedHorse.
I appreciate your comments to this board as I just purchased a Genz Benz 6.0 Shuttle and love it. I sent Hasbeen (Roger) a PM about settings and he was very helpful. I was also concerned about the clip light on the far right hand side coming on here and there while slapping and he assured me that that was okay.
So far my experience with GB has been great and your posting here on TB has been part of that.
Thanks,
Noah

 

[petch]

I just bought one as well (TB Classifieds) and it is terrific. (Nice gain explanation by agedhorse, thanks)! Very flexible but has a great sound without turning the knobs much. The light weight is awesome when schlepping! I had a question about something and Jeff Genzler answered my email himself pronto. Great product, great service.

 

[KJung]

I've seen a couple of threads regarding comparisons between the volume of the LM2 and the 6.0. It was properly noted that the position of the vol/gain knobs is arbitrary, and knob position shouldn't be considered in comparisons.

My M.O. has always been to turn up the volume of the amp to 50% max, and I've lived by the adage that if you need to go past 50% volume, you need a louder amp. In thinking about it, I guess this is probably old school nonsense.

Can Genz comment? How hard is it advisable to drive a 6.0? If I'm running 100% at all times, what will this mean for the amp?

Cheers!

Knob position has nothing to do with anything. Ignore the position of the knobs and use your ears. There are different pot taper designs and gain structure designs. Also, the Shuttle 6.0 is an amp where you want to totally ignore the 'power amp clip lights', which strangely come on when you start going into power amp 'tube emulation limiting' versus being a 'clip warning' like on most other amps. Many get confused by this, and think they have reached the volume limits of the amp, versus whatever it is those lights indicate. Strange design that continues to cause consumer confusion.

Ignore your eyes with this particular amp... crank it up and when it starts to sound bad, you know you've reached the limit of its volume. It doesn't wump like some other micro's, but it should be loud enough for most needs at 4ohms, assuming you don't need big low end.

 

[kaiser_sosea]

Knob position has nothing to do with anything. Ignore the position of the knobs and use your ears. There are different pot taper designs and gain structure designs. Also, the Shuttle 6.0 is an amp where you want to totally ignore the 'power amp clip lights', which strangely come on when you start going into power amp 'tube emulation limiting' versus being a 'clip warning' like on most other amps. Many get confused by this, and think they have reached the volume limits of the amp, versus whatever it is those lights indicate. Strange design that continues to cause consumer confusion.

Ignore your eyes with this particular amp... crank it up and when it starts to sound bad, you know you've reached the limit of its volume. It doesn't wump like some other micro's, but it should be loud enough for most needs at 4ohms, assuming you don't need big low end.

I think the lights were designed this way to let you know when you are engaging what some might consider "tube like" soft clipping. So with the preamp O/L light the more light the more warmth from the preamp tube. With the clip light @ the power amp you are experiencing the "tube like" soft clip that many players may find to be a useable tone. Beyond that I believe there are something like 6db before the amp actually clips and at that point a different light will flash alerting you to back of on the low eq or turn down the master. At least this was my experience with the NeoPak and I believe the Shuttle I've just acquired to be similar. However, I could be wrong.

 

[wmheilma]

I have recently started using the GB Shuttle MAX 6.0 and have definitly enough volume in the medium-loud settings I play in these days. I am really pleased with the foot-switchable preamp options on the MAX! i did spend a bit of time at home in the bassment experimenting with the gain stages to get the right overall result. I have two distince tones between the two channels even prior to the final EQ stage (which has Low boost, Mid Cut, and High Boost available via foot-switch). Combining the two channels for solo boost works well after setting overall gain in each channel and output volume to avoid outright clipping.

If I were in a band with a really loud drummer and a really loud guitarist, i'd probably get the MAX 12.0. For me the 6.0 works very well.

 

[agedhorse]

I think the lights were designed this way to let you know when you are engaging what some might consider "tube like" soft clipping. So with the preamp O/L light the more light the more warmth from the preamp tube. With the clip light @ the power amp you are experiencing the "tube like" soft clip that many players may find to be a useable tone. Beyond that I believe there are something like 6db before the amp actually clips and at that point a different light will flash alerting you to back of on the low eq or turn down the master. At least this was my experience with the NeoPak and I believe the Shuttle I've just acquired to be similar. However, I could be wrong.

This is correct.

It's also covered in the owner's manual and the LED shows when you are getting close to maximum power and are crossin the threshold of the output tube emulation limiter. It is really a limit light.

There is no problem hitting the limiter, and in fact is desireable to some players.

 

[fretster]

off topic, but is the 9.0 worth the upgrade?

Hey Cappy! I picked up a 9.0 to fill the void left when you picked up my 6.0. My experience with the 9.0 vs the 6.0 is not that it is louder, it's just more solid and deep. Both can get loud enough, but the 9.0 just gives you more comfort zone. I'm using it with the EPI UL2-210, and that's great at low, medium and loud volumes. I have not actually taken the Berg out of the house yet, as the EPI+9.0 has been plenty. As expected the Berg plus the 9.0 reaches over 7.0 on the richter scale! That's far beyond anything I've actually needed musically. Nice to have the power available though! The gigs should be starting in another month with the blues band I joined, so I'm sure the Berg+9.0 will start seeing some action.

 

[Pilgrim]

I've only played out with my new Shuttle 6.0 a few times, but I push the preamp gain up high for a tube OD, and only need to crack the master gain to about 8:00. So far I've covered my gigs with a single 12T speaker, but I have two 12T's if I need to add speaker surface area and access more power from the amp. I'm just barely bumping the bass and mid frequencies up from the neutral setting.

IME it will take a big venue for me to actually need the second 12T speaker, or to push the master volume on the amp anywhere as high as 12:00.

Maybe you folks feel that knob settings don't matter, but aside from that we have no visual indicators to use in relating our settings. I find the 6.0 to be awesomely loud.

 

[KJung]

Maybe you folks feel that knob settings don't matter, but aside from that we have no visual indicators to use in relating our settings. I find the 6.0 to be awesomely loud.

The point here is that you can't compare the output of different amps by saying 'this one is louder than the other when both master volumes are set at noon'. The physical level of the knobs means very little across manufacturers. For example, my Markbass heads, when the input gain level is set appropriately (i.e., just before clip) reach full volume at around 1 o'clock on the master. My TecAmp Puma500, with the same 'correct' input gain setting (i.e., just before the clip light comes on), doesn't even start to wump UNTIL you hit that 1 o'clock level. Those comparing one amp to the other by setting the master and input gain at the same physical level are, in most cases, not doing an apples to apples comparison.

 

[KJung]

This is correct.

.

I did not realize that the indicator light changed color when you go from 'mild limit' to clip (or full limit). In that case, this makes sense. Just having a light come on when you have 6db to go... not so much. I never knew that light changed color. I felt I've had the 6.0 at its full volume, limiter quashed limits and that 'early indicator light' never changed color. I'll have to pound on it some more next time I get my hands on one of these.

 

[chuck3]

I've gigged my 6.0 all over and love it. Depending on the venue, I've played it as the 6.0-210T combo, or I've taken the head off and played it with a Neox 112. Never a lack of anything. Ignore the flashing lights!

I just bought a Neox 212 off a TB-er and for my next gig with my regular band, am looking forward to playing through a 4 ohm cab and really driving things. It's a somewhat larger venue so I think I'll need it.

I have a MarkBass LM II as well, as my backup amp, and I like that too. But with Genz Benz, it just seems like complete clarity as to what's happening sonically.

When I get the $, I'll get a 9.0.