Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0 volume question

[Pilgrim]

The point here is that you can't compare the output of different amps by saying 'this one is louder than the other when both master volumes are set at noon'. The physical level of the knobs means very little across manufacturers.

Understood and agreed. I was referring to settings when you DO have the same brand and model amp to compare. Since this thread specifically references the Shuttle 6.0, I assumed everyone was citing settings on that specific amp.

I may have been mistaken.

I agree that comparing where the knob is on amp Brand A vs. Brand B is meaningless.

 

[agedhorse]

I did not realize that the indicator light changed color when you go from 'mild limit' to clip (or full limit). In that case, this makes sense. Just having a light come on when you have 6db to go... not so much. I never knew that light changed color. I felt I've had the 6.0 at its full volume, limiter quashed limits and that 'early indicator light' never changed color. I'll have to pound on it some more next time I get my hands on one of these.

It's a single color, and indicates when you are ~2dB below clip. At that point you have just crossed the threshold of the output tube emulation limiter which has variable slope and ratio, so driving the limiter another 6dB yields 2dB to the power amp and you are now beginning to clip the amp. The point of the LED is to let you know that you are entering compression and you have another 6dB of input that will result in 2dB more output and more average level.

The reason for the LED is that we found that many players could not tell when the amp began to limit (due to the variable slope & ratio) and liked the feel at that point. You now know that you should be aware that output clipping is a possibility. Better that then all of a sudden hitting clipping and having a light flash... it's a proactive approach.

If the limiter wasn't as transparent as it is (and there are plenty of examples of limiters on bass amps that aren't) , we wouldn't have bothered with doing the LED this way. There's also no room for a true output clip detector and drive/decode circuitry due to the way clip detection needs to be done on a class D amp like this. To do it right takes a bit of real estate which is at a premium in the Shuttles.

 

[Doug Parent]

I have pushed the 6.0 Shuttle in various situations that I would have other wise brought my Carvin B1500 for, and been surprised that I covered the gig with that little thing. I'm amazed, but I'm taking delivery of a F1 next week, curious how that is going to compare. Ken, your thoughts volume wise? (sorry for the derail) The 6.0 Shuttle is a good bang for the buck especially if you get one at a used price. Genz Benz does a great job.

 

[Radek]

I've found my Shuttle6.0 to be loud enough. I mean using midscooped tone with a loud drummer and 100W tube amped guitarist. (that's with Neox212T) I can boost perceived volume by an external compressor too. So no complains, not at all yet... 9.0 would be thrilling but then I'd need to get a bigger cabinet to get a good use of it.

 

[agedhorse]

Here's something else for you guys with larger cabinets to try.

Rather than starting out using the Low Freq eq control, first try engaging the LF Extend switch. This allows you to take advantage of a different shape/type of filter response that extends the LF response of the amp with a filter that compliments the response of a larger cabinet. Then, use the low eq to taste. The results will be a little deeper, rounder, and also tighter low end.

 

[()smoke()]

Here's something else for you guys with larger cabinets to try.

Rather than starting out using the Low Freq eq control, first try engaging the LF Extend switch. This allows you to take advantage of a different shape/type of filter response that extends the LF response of the amp with a filter that compliments the response of a larger cabinet. Then, use the low eq to taste. The results will be a little deeper, rounder, and also tighter low end.

+1

i use the LF switch, and eq from there, it definitely deepens and rounds the low end...the manager who runs the store where i bought mine showed me this, and it's how he runs his as well...based on a lot of posts i'd read, i had the preconception that i wouldn't want to use the switches, but that's why they are there, so i use them to get the sound i want

edit: i engage the switch with the 210 as well, and eq from there, i prefer the sound that way

 

[svtb15]

+1

Here's something else for you guys with larger cabinets to try.

Rather than starting out using the Low Freq eq control, first try engaging the LF Extend switch. This allows you to take advantage of a different shape/type of filter response that extends the LF response of the amp with a filter that compliments the response of a larger cabinet. Then, use the low eq to taste. The results will be a little deeper, rounder, and also tighter low end.

 

[hasbeen]

Here's something else for you guys with larger cabinets to try.

Rather than starting out using the Low Freq eq control, first try engaging the LF Extend switch. This allows you to take advantage of a different shape/type of filter response that extends the LF response of the amp with a filter that compliments the response of a larger cabinet. Then, use the low eq to taste. The results will be a little deeper, rounder, and also tighter low end.

this also "replicates" the inherent tone, feel and volume of another popular Class D amp that's in the market.

 

[svtb15]

Hi Roger.. it was great seeing you at NAMM last week.. Good to get a little time to just chat and catch up and see the Uber cabs in person.. I like the grill ALOT!...
It was a good show. I missed my plane on Monday due to the heavy rain and stayed a few extra days... need the time away so it was good and got out just before the mud slides..

this also "replicates" the inherent tone, feel and volume of another popular Class D amp that's in the market.

 

[hasbeen]

Hi Roger.. it was great seeing you at NAMM last week.. Good to get a little time to just chat and catch up and see the Uber cabs in person.. I like the grill ALOT!...
It was a good show. I missed my plane on Monday due to the heavy rain and stayed a few extra days... need the time away so it was good and got out just before the mud slides..

Likewise Kirk....thanks for stopping by. I got out of Anaheim early Monday morning....just in time.

 

[noahw1]

Here's something else for you guys with larger cabinets to try.

Rather than starting out using the Low Freq eq control, first try engaging the LF Extend switch. This allows you to take advantage of a different shape/type of filter response that extends the LF response of the amp with a filter that compliments the response of a larger cabinet. Then, use the low eq to taste. The results will be a little deeper, rounder, and also tighter low end.

Good to know. I'll have to try this. Thanks!

 

[Stereo Joe]

I'll just chime in here about the volume question. I just got a Shuttle 6.0 a couple weeks ago and I've used it on a few gigs where I previously used my Markbass SA450. I honestly could not compare the max volume of the two amps because I've never been anywhere close to needing that much volume!
I really don't get that people are regularly hitting the limit of these amps' capabilities. I am using a very efficient 4ohm cabinet (Berg AE410), so maybe that is a big factor.
From reading these forums I got an inaccurate impression that I would have volume problems with my Shuttle, but I don't think I've ever come near the maximum yet even with a LOUD drummer in a fairly large dance club.
For reference, I often run both preamp gain and volume knobs at their maximum position and get a little bit of the O/L light coming on at my strongest attacks. I use a passive P or J and I don't think I've ever had the master volume on the Shuttle past 10 o'clock even during 3rd set at these loud rock gigs.
The Shuttle 6.0 is a great amp and my guess is that for the majority of players, volume won't be an issue.

 

[kesslari]

My Shuttle 6.0 just arrived. I'll be bringing it to rehearsal tomorrow. First impressions - great little amp! Nice compliment to my NeoPak. I'll put it through its paces tomorrow, but I'm not concerned about hitting a wall volume-wise.

Oh, and I'm a fan of the LF boost as well - nice and tight.

 

[Discount Saint]

I've been using my Shuttle 6.0 for well over a year now, and previous to that I had a MB SA450 -- running through 2 Mesa Powerhouse Cabs (210 and 115).

I run mine with the tube gain close to cranked and the preamp volume around 12 noon. With this configuration I rarely need to turn the master volume up past 3.5 or so, and this is with a 2-guitar synthy rock band which has a very healthy bass-bias (IMO, of course).

Compared to the SA450 I've found the tone of the Shuttle to be much "rounder" and "fuller".. though these are somewhat arbitrary qualification. I guess overall I just like the sound of it better and feel it both fills up the room and cuts through better overall. I'm interested in upgrading to 9.0, but honestly I have yet to encounter a situation where I was anywhere close to running out of room on the 6.0, so its kind of hard to justify the extra expense (aside from the sexy new black casing, that is).

 

[KJung]

I'll just chime in here about the volume question. I just got a Shuttle 6.0 a couple weeks ago and I've used it on a few gigs where I previously used my Markbass SA450. I honestly could not compare the max volume of the two amps because I've never been anywhere close to needing that much volume!
I really don't get that people are regularly hitting the limit of these amps' capabilities. I am using a very efficient 4ohm cabinet (Berg AE410), so maybe that is a big factor.
From reading these forums I got an inaccurate impression that I would have volume problems with my Shuttle, but I don't think I've ever come near the maximum yet even with a LOUD drummer in a fairly large dance club.
For reference, I often run both preamp gain and volume knobs at their maximum position and get a little bit of the O/L light coming on at my strongest attacks. I use a passive P or J and I don't think I've ever had the master volume on the Shuttle past 10 o'clock even during 3rd set at these loud rock gigs.
The Shuttle 6.0 is a great amp and my guess is that for the majority of players, volume won't be an issue.

You are addressing a different question.


The question 'Is it loud enough for me?', is a personal and, quite frankly, uninteresting one. For some, they don't understand why a little Phil Jones combo wouldn't be enough 'to do any gig'. For others, they complain about their bridged thousand watt power amp into two 410's not punching enough. Neither is right, neither is wrong. This is why some think guys who carry around lead sleds and huge stacks are idiots, and others think that those who use small, lightweight amps are 'compromising their tone'.

The other question is a bit more quantitative...'which amp is louder'. However, there is a qualitative component here also, since part of 'volume' has to do with 'volume across the entire frequency spectrum that you are interesting in'. A 20 watt guitar tube amp can pretty much bury any bass rig out there since it is only reproducing, in the bass dialect, upper mids and above. If you like a Jaco burp, an amp that is somewhat attenuated down low can sound ridiculously loud, and actually 'louder' than a more full range, evenly voiced bass amp. If you are dub player, you might experience that amp as thin, lifeless and soft.

I continue to be amazed at the confusion between... 'how loud is the amp?' and 'is it loud enough for me?'. Two very different questions that almost always result in different answers The first question is again, personal and uninteresting IMO, the second is relatively clear cut (but not completely... and of course, a 'louder amp that you don't dig' is a clear 'fail', just as much as an amp you love that will not adequately generate the tone you dig at the volume needed).

 

[Stereo Joe]

You are addressing a different question.


The question 'Is it loud enough for me?', is a personal and, quite frankly, uninteresting one. For some, they don't understand why a little Phil Jones combo wouldn't be enough 'to do any gig'. For others, they complain about their bridged thousand watt power amp into two 410's not punching enough. Neither is right, neither is wrong. This is why some think guys who carry around lead sleds and huge stacks are idiots, and others think that those who use small, lightweight amps are 'compromising their tone'.

The other question is a bit more quantitative...'which amp is louder'. However, there is a qualitative component here also, since part of 'volume' has to do with 'volume across the entire frequency spectrum that you are interesting in'. A 20 watt guitar tube amp can pretty much bury any bass rig out there since it is only reproducing, in the bass dialect, upper mids and above. If you like a Jaco burp, an amp that is somewhat attenuated down low can sound ridiculously loud, and actually 'louder' than a more full range, evenly voiced bass amp. If you are dub player, you might experience that amp as thin, lifeless and soft.

I continue to be amazed at the confusion between... 'how loud is the amp?' and 'is it loud enough for me?'. Two very different questions that almost always result in different answers The first question is again, personal and uninteresting IMO, the second is relatively clear cut (but not completely... and of course, a 'louder amp that you don't dig' is a clear 'fail', just as much as an amp you love that will not adequately generate the tone you dig at the volume needed).

I get what you mean, although I do think my response could have relevance to some, maybe even be interesting. Part of the problem with these volume questions is that even looking at the 'quantitative' info about amps, there is a huge range of opinions. Regardless of posted wattage specs, many users are posting differing, and at times, conflicting reports on volume comparisons between amp A and amp B. In my opinion, it becomes almost more useful to hear about specific user situations and how amplifiers respond based on the venue, player, and setup.
For me, it's more useful to read about the personal, real world experience with an amp, even though some might find it uninteresting.

 

[Michael Vee]

Fronting either the 6.0 or the 9.0 with a VT Bass pedal gives a bassist endless possiblilities with EQ, gain structures and tones. I explored the VT/6.0 combination for months, and now with the 9.0 for some time and have not yet imagined a sound I could not tweak and get with either head.

Stacking the VT tube emulation into the various amounts of overdrive that the Shuttle preamp can do makes many different textures of pure noise, grit, overdrive, or warmth, many flavors of which are interesting and usable.

Of course, another option is to simply run the VT output into the Shuttle effects return. That's extremely punchy and potent.

This is related to the OP from the standpoint of the VT gives the player of a Shuttle head many more gain and tone options. It's a sweet combination.

Andy and Roger- I'm thinking one or both of you have a VT and have used it with your Genz gear- what's your take on it?

Then again, I also have done a lot of playing just through the different settings of the Shuttles alone, no VT, and loved those.

 

[agedhorse]

Not me, but I am familiar with what it sounds like.

 

[hasbeen]

I don't have one either Michael. I do have an Aguilar Tonehammer.

The agro setting sounds great through the Shuttle.......I get plenty of "tube" overdrive.

BTW- this pedal has a permanent place on my minimal board now.

 

[KJung]

I get what you mean, although I do think my response could have relevance to some, maybe even be interesting. Part of the problem with these volume questions is that even looking at the 'quantitative' info about amps, there is a huge range of opinions. Regardless of posted wattage specs, many users are posting differing, and at times, conflicting reports on volume comparisons between amp A and amp B. In my opinion, it becomes almost more useful to hear about specific user situations and how amplifiers respond based on the venue, player, and setup.
For me, it's more useful to read about the personal, real world experience with an amp, even though some might find it uninteresting.

'uninteresting' was probably too strong of a word I just meant by that 'personal and not as relevent to others in general'.

+1 though. I myself have never come close to 'maxing out' any of these small heads on a gig, and I play 'relatively loud', but also like a relatively punchy tone and use large, 4ohm, relatively high SPL cabs.

And again, +1 on your point, and the point that I was trying to make, that even 'testing heads on testing equipment' is a questionable task with questionable outcomes, since what makes a rig 'sound like it does' is a massive number of interactions that can never be controlled and tested.

Sorry for the OT, since this is surely not specific to the Shuttle 6.0. However, it does play to the OP's question, and to sum up:

1) The position of the knobs should NEVER be used to indicate 'how loud am amp will go' (i.e., it kicks, I never have to put the master past 10 o'clock)

2) 'Loud enough for me' has very little to do with the general question of 'how does as amp perform versus other amps'

3) 'How loud does it go' is only a small part of the question of amp performance, since different amps have different levels of distortion, different voicing which make some even and fat and others attenuated and/or mid present, etc.

I like the topic a lot, and again, many of us have spent LOT's of time at GTG's and also comparing notes regarding the 'real world' performance of all this stuff in order to try to provide as close to 'quantitative' information on the performance among all this stuff (for better or worse) as possible.

Finally, per your comment about 'conflicting posts' and findings on all this stuff, I find that if you control for the source of the post (i.e., who is posting and their association with the company in question), the results are very, very, very consistent on most topics and comparisons.