Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 discussion thread

[B String]

I'm not unhappy, I just don't understand the gain structure of
my 9.0 in relation to absolute volume.

Last evening I was using my Epifani UL112/UL110 stack with a
Fender Am Dlx J V. This is an active bass with lots of output.
The stack is 4ohms giving me 900 watts.
I usually keep my tube gain at 12:00, and gain at 4:00. I use
my master for volume adjustments. Tone controls flat.

At soundcheck I felt I was a little loud. The speakers didn't
seem to be working too hard but too much volume.
I turned around to lower the volume and realized a somehow
maxed the master volume. That's 900 watts going into boxes
that only take 250 and 350 watts! I've used heads with much
less wattage that were just as loud with more volume knob
room to spare, and felt like I could easily blow speakers with
more volume.
Can someone please explain how this can be?? My 9.0 isn't
going anywhere and I'm very happy with it, but I feel like I
drove my head to the edge of its usable volume with my little
speakers in no danger of blowing. Using my old Focus I as a
power amp and a Sansamp Paradriver as a preamp, I had more
headroom and certainly could have blown these speakers with
its full volume. HOW DOES THIS WORK?? PLEASE HELP ME
TO UNDERSTAND!

 

[fretster]

I'm not unhappy, I just don't understand the gain structure of
my 9.0 in relation to absolute volume.

Last evening I was using my Epifani UL112/UL110 stack with a
Fender Am Dlx J V. This is an active bass with lots of output.
The stack is 4ohms giving me 900 watts.
I usually keep my tube gain at 12:00, and gain at 4:00. I use
my master for volume adjustments. Tone controls flat.

At soundcheck I felt I was a little loud. The speakers didn't
seem to be working too hard but too much volume.
I turned around to lower the volume and realized a somehow
maxed the master volume. That's 900 watts going into boxes
that only take 250 and 350 watts! I've used heads with much
less wattage that were just as loud with more volume knob
room to spare, and felt like I could easily blow speakers with
more volume.
Can someone please explain how this can be?? My 9.0 isn't
going anywhere and I'm very happy with it, but I feel like I
drove my head to the edge of its usable volume with my little
speakers in no danger of blowing. Using my old Focus I as a
power amp and a Sansamp Paradriver as a preamp, I had more
headroom and certainly could have blown these speakers with
its full volume. HOW DOES THIS WORK?? PLEASE HELP ME
TO UNDERSTAND!

Hmmmmm..... I would not assume that just because the Master Volume is turned all the way up that the amp is pumping out 900 watts. The output watts is a function of the input signal, and the gain provided by each stage.

 

[Eublet]

I'm not unhappy, I just don't understand the gain structure of
my 9.0 in relation to absolute volume.

Last evening I was using my Epifani UL112/UL110 stack with a
Fender Am Dlx J V. This is an active bass with lots of output.
The stack is 4ohms giving me 900 watts.
I usually keep my tube gain at 12:00, and gain at 4:00. I use
my master for volume adjustments. Tone controls flat.

At soundcheck I felt I was a little loud. The speakers didn't
seem to be working too hard but too much volume.
I turned around to lower the volume and realized a somehow
maxed the master volume. That's 900 watts going into boxes
that only take 250 and 350 watts! I've used heads with much
less wattage that were just as loud with more volume knob
room to spare, and felt like I could easily blow speakers with
more volume.
Can someone please explain how this can be?? My 9.0 isn't
going anywhere and I'm very happy with it, but I feel like I
drove my head to the edge of its usable volume with my little
speakers in no danger of blowing. Using my old Focus I as a
power amp and a Sansamp Paradriver as a preamp, I had more
headroom and certainly could have blown these speakers with
its full volume. HOW DOES THIS WORK?? PLEASE HELP ME
TO UNDERSTAND!

The master volume just lets you adjust the degree to which the input signal can be boosted. It doesn't automatically mean it's putting out 900 watts. A weak signal can only be boosted so much. If your bass is too weak to get a good preamp signal (hard to imagine), then you won't get a strong signal into the power section, and your head can't deliver it's full power.

 

[Burlington]

I'm not unhappy, I just don't understand the gain structure of
my 9.0 in relation to absolute volume.

Last evening I was using my Epifani UL112/UL110 stack with a
Fender Am Dlx J V. This is an active bass with lots of output.
The stack is 4ohms giving me 900 watts.
I usually keep my tube gain at 12:00, and gain at 4:00. I use
my master for volume adjustments. Tone controls flat.

At soundcheck I felt I was a little loud. The speakers didn't
seem to be working too hard but too much volume.
I turned around to lower the volume and realized a somehow
maxed the master volume. That's 900 watts going into boxes
that only take 250 and 350 watts! I've used heads with much
less wattage that were just as loud with more volume knob
room to spare, and felt like I could easily blow speakers with
more volume.
Can someone please explain how this can be?? My 9.0 isn't
going anywhere and I'm very happy with it, but I feel like I
drove my head to the edge of its usable volume with my little
speakers in no danger of blowing. Using my old Focus I as a
power amp and a Sansamp Paradriver as a preamp, I had more
headroom and certainly could have blown these speakers with
its full volume. HOW DOES THIS WORK?? PLEASE HELP ME
TO UNDERSTAND!

Well, your EQ was flat. As you turn up those knobs, those frequencies get louder. I.E., if you had the EQ knobs all the way down, the amp would be alot quieter. This is atleast how I understand EQ usually works.

 

[B String]

The master volume just lets you adjust the degree to which the input signal can be boosted. It doesn't automatically mean it's putting out 900 watts. A weak signal can only be boosted so much. If your bass is too weak to get a good preamp signal (hard to imagine), then you won't get a strong signal into the power section, and your head can't deliver it's full power.

As I stated, I have an active bass with plenty of output.
When I use some heads (GK500mb) I have to pad the input
due to the strong output signal.
The front end gain is at 4:00. Almost dimed. The only thing I
can do is turn the tube gain up higher than 12:00-1:00, which
is where it usually is. Any higher and the tone is not as clean.
Again...I'm missing something here.....what?

 

[B String]

Well, your EQ was flat. As you turn up those knobs, those frequencies get louder. I.E., if you had the EQ knobs all the way down, the amp would be alot quieter. This is atleast how I understand EQ usually works.

Most of the time this head sounds good flat. If I start to
boost frequencies I radically change the tone as well as
volume of the setup.

 

[Eublet]

As I stated, I have an active bass with plenty of output.
When I use some heads (GK500mb) I have to pad the input
due to the strong output signal.
The front end gain is at 4:00. Almost dimed. The only thing I
can do is turn the tube gain up higher than 12:00-1:00, which
is where it usually is. Any higher and the tone is not as clean.
Again...I'm missing something here.....what?

At one point on the tube gain do you get some input clip flashing?

Where is your Preamp Volume set?

 

[B String]

At one point on the tube gain do you get some input clip flashing?

Where is your Preamp Volume set?

It's more about tone than clipping with the tube gain.

tube gain 12:00-1:00
front gain 3:00 -4:00
master was full out
tone flat.

I just got some info in a pm that might explain everything.
This is a great amp, but I should be thinking of it as a strong
600 watt amp, not a 900 watt amp. Apparently Genz rates
their power amps differently than many other manufacturers.

Again, one of the main points here is that I never hear the
amp straining or clipping. I simply run out of volume, but its
all clean and usable. The Markbass 800 tube amp I tried had
more headroom than the 9.0, but I hated the tone. Its not
just about power, you have to like what it sounds like too.

 

[Musicman20]

It's more about tone than clipping with the tube gain.

tube gain 12:00-1:00
front gain 3:00 -4:00
master was full out
tone flat.

I just got some info in a pm that might explain everything.
This is a great amp, but I should be thinking of it as a strong
600 watt amp, not a 900 watt amp. Apparently Genz rates
their power amps differently than many other manufacturers.

Again, one of the main points here is that I never hear the
amp straining or clipping. I simply run out of volume, but its
all clean and usable. The Markbass 800 tube amp I tried had
more headroom than the 9.0, but I hated the tone. Its not
just about power, you have to like what it sounds like too.

I agree you have to like the tone. I had a similar experience with a the same amp, except I wanted a little hair on the noted. I had the master on virtually full pelt and I somehow needed more.

 

[Musicman20]

It's more about tone than clipping with the tube gain.

tube gain 12:00-1:00
front gain 3:00 -4:00
master was full out
tone flat.

I just got some info in a pm that might explain everything.
This is a great amp, but I should be thinking of it as a strong
600 watt amp, not a 900 watt amp. Apparently Genz rates
their power amps differently than many other manufacturers.

Again, one of the main points here is that I never hear the
amp straining or clipping. I simply run out of volume, but its
all clean and usable. The Markbass 800 tube amp I tried had
more headroom than the 9.0, but I hated the tone. Its not
just about power, you have to like what it sounds like too.

I agree you have to like the tone. I had a similar experience with a the same amp, except I wanted a little hair on the notes. I had the master on virtually full pelt and I somehow needed more.

 

[Eublet]

It's more about tone than clipping with the tube gain.

tube gain 12:00-1:00
front gain 3:00 -4:00
master was full out
tone flat.

I just got some info in a pm that might explain everything.
This is a great amp, but I should be thinking of it as a strong
600 watt amp, not a 900 watt amp. Apparently Genz rates
their power amps differently than many other manufacturers.

Again, one of the main points here is that I never hear the
amp straining or clipping. I simply run out of volume, but its
all clean and usable. The Markbass 800 tube amp I tried had
more headroom than the 9.0, but I hated the tone. Its not
just about power, you have to like what it sounds like too.

600 or 900 watts, with a full signal into the preamp, you shouldn't be able to run the master at max without seriously clipping the amp. Something is not right here.

 

[B String]

600 or 900 watts, with a full signal into the preamp, you shouldn't be able to run the master at max without seriously clipping the amp. Something is not right here.

You'd think so but I'm getting all the volume I need, aside from
being at my limit much of the time. Also, I'm not abusing my
speakers. (aside from the quality of my playing)
I could always get more volume if I boost the tone controls
and tube gain, but again, it sound good almost flat.

The funny thing is this once happened with my Berg AE210.
Its rated at 400 watts. I was maxing my amp volume and the
Berg was fine with it and it sounded so good...

 

[Eublet]

You'd think so but I'm getting all the volume I need, aside from
being at my limit much of the time. Also, I'm not abusing my
speakers. (aside from the quality of my playing)
I could always get more volume if I boost the tone controls
and tube gain, but again, it sound good almost flat.

The funny thing is this once happened with my Berg AE210.
Its rated at 400 watts. I was maxing my amp volume and the
Berg was fine with it and it sounded so good...

I'm not talking about whether or not you are getting the volume you need. If you can get a strong signal into the preamp, then the amp should clip long before you can reach full on the Master. If you can cruise along with the amp running at max settings, something is not right.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

It's more about tone than clipping with the tube gain.

tube gain 12:00-1:00
front gain 3:00 -4:00
master was full out
tone flat.

There may be two things going on: volume and signal clarity.
If you don't like the grit of the tube, you might need to go with a different amp for a cleaner signal at higher volume. That's why I prefer the ShuttleMAX12 as a preamp plus a QSC PLX3602 for power. Sometimes I like it perfectly clean, other times with some tube. The SM12 is limited by power, the Shuttle 9 is limited by its tube-only sound. Genz Benz will fix this once and for all when they put the power section of the 9 into the SM12.

 

[B String]

There may be two things going on: volume and signal clarity.
If you don't like the grit of the tube, you might need to go with a different amp for a cleaner signal at higher volume. That's why I prefer the ShuttleMAX12 as a preamp plus a QSC PLX3602 for power. Sometimes I like it perfectly clean, other times with some tube. The SM12 is limited by power, the Shuttle 9 is limited by its tube-only sound. Genz Benz will fix this once and for all when they put the power section of the 9 into the SM12.

For me, the size, weight, power,and tone of the 9.0 is sexy as
hell. I actually like the tweakability of the max heads more,
but its a much bigger package. The 9.0 is in the micro amp
class, which is the class I want to be in right now.

 

[agedhorse]

First of all, I can't go into any technical details regarding what we do with the 9.0 because of company policy on pending patents but I do suggest that published specifications only apply to stock power amp modules and are only under specific operating conditions. I have a lot of experience designing with class D technology going back to my previous pro audio life, the technology is very, very different from linear amplification and it's all too easy to make inaccurate assumptions when all the facts and details are not well understood. In our application, the output is rated at >900 watts RMS into 4 ohms.

Secondly, some of you are confusing gain structure with power. They are totally independant. 3 seperate gain stages are provided because players use the amps in a very wide variety of situations, playing styles, basses, etc. We could have done as some other manufactures have done and put all of the gain into the first 50% of the control's rotation, or assing extra gain, making it APPEAR more powerful than it really is and then squashing, compressing and limiting it down but that's just not our philosophy. We think that the entire rotation of the pot should be useable to give better control over adjustment..., otherwise why make a control with all that rotation???

 

[rok51]

...Secondly, some of you are confusing gain structure with power. They are totally independant. 3 seperate gain stages are provided because players use the amps in a very wide variety of situations, playing styles, basses, etc. We could have done as some other manufactures have done and put all of the gain into the first 50% of the control's rotation, or assing extra gain, making it APPEAR more powerful than it really is and then squashing, compressing and limiting it down but that's just not our philosophy. We think that the entire rotation of the pot should be useable to give better control over adjustment..., otherwise why make a control with all that rotation???

Okay...my limited experience (non-gig) with my 9.0...has demonstrated an incredible amount of versatility with regards to gain structure and overall volume...it's somewhat different from what I am accustomed to...yet...I have found it to be more versatile, once I jettisoned my preconceptions...I adjust the tube gain for sonic feel...leave the gain dimed and adjust the overall volume from the master...it has been bloody loud through my pair of GS 112s and way more than I would need in my gigging situations...there is a lot of different textures available in this little box...but it is not necessarily intuitive...ya gots to play with it...

Kim

 

[BassIan]

First of all, I can't go into any technical details regarding what we do with the 9.0 because of company policy on pending patents but I do suggest that published specifications only apply to stock power amp modules and are only under specific operating conditions. I have a lot of experience designing with class D technology going back to my previous pro audio life, the technology is very, very different from linear amplification and it's all too easy to make inaccurate assumptions when all the facts and details are not well understood. In our application, the output is rated at >900 watts RMS into 4 ohms.

Secondly, some of you are confusing gain structure with power. They are totally independant. 3 seperate gain stages are provided because players use the amps in a very wide variety of situations, playing styles, basses, etc. We could have done as some other manufactures have done and put all of the gain into the first 50% of the control's rotation, or assing extra gain, making it APPEAR more powerful than it really is and then squashing, compressing and limiting it down but that's just not our philosophy. We think that the entire rotation of the pot should be useable to give better control over adjustment..., otherwise why make a control with all that rotation???

Understood. I certainly have no doubt about the quoted specifications for this application. I'm an engineer in a different field (instrumentation for oceanography - acoustics in the realm of MHz!) and am innately curious about these things. Hence the questions.

I've been using my Shuttle 9.0 in place of my 80 lb SVT-2 Pro (I know, polar opposites) and am absolutely astonished at the headroom I was missing before. Running the 9.0 into my Bergantino NV610 is impressive, and with the preamp cranked up for some grit, very reminiscent of the tones I used from the Ampeg.

I'm not sure how often you've heard it directly, but your presence on this forum was one of the factors contributing to my purchase. Thank you.

 

[agedhorse]

Understood. I certainly have no doubt about the quoted specifications for this application. I'm an engineer in a different field (instrumentation for oceanography - acoustics in the realm of MHz!) and am innately curious about these things. Hence the questions.

and likewise as an engineer I have the innate desire to share the details of how some of this trick stuff works...

My dad worked on Sonar designs in the 60's and one of my good customers worked as a radar engineer around the same time. That's a whole different world.

 

[BassIan]

and likewise as an engineer I have the innate desire to share the details of how some of this trick stuff works...

My dad worked on Sonar designs in the 60's and one of my good customers worked as a radar engineer around the same time. That's a whole different world.

You nailed it! There's nothing like sharing and appreciating ingenuity.

You must come by your career and interests honestly with that kind of background in the family. Little has changed in the sonar business since then; it's a slow moving one that doesn't embrace innovation quickly. It's taken a lot of convincing and time for our customers to embrace a direct acoustic measurement of sound speed in place of calculated values. Many still doubt the direct measurement's validity.

But, it's Friday - back to the bass, not the office!