Genz Benz Streamliner Part 3!!!!

[KJung]

I've found the pre EQ DI on virtually every amp I've ever used as being fine and more similar than different across amps. My guess is, the vast majority of players and listeners would not be able to tell the difference on a blind basis between the pre EQ DI out of most amps (Markbass, Genz, Thunderfunk, etc.) and a 'non voiced' good quality stand alone DI like the Countryman or JDI.

Once you get into the post EQ DI world, or the 'voiced' direct boxes like the Reddi, than it all becomes a kind of 'personal taste' thing IMO. It is rare that the EQ you would use to get a bass cab to sound good on stage would be in any way a positive going into a board and a full range front of house system.

One thing that I've found is that it is ALWAYS good to separate your DI tone from your backline tone settings. If you like a clean tone, this is typically best done with a pre EQ DI. If you are one that likes a lot of coloring, etc. in your tone, then a stand-alone voiced DI like the Reddi or Sans Amp or whatever, or a mic'd cab is the way to go.

IMO and IME!

 

[gillento]

....
One thing that I've found is that it is ALWAYS good to separate your DI tone from your backline tone settings. If you like a clean tone, this is typically best done with a pre EQ DI. If you are one that likes a lot of coloring, etc. in your tone, then a stand-alone voiced DI like the Reddi or Sans Amp or whatever, or a mic'd cab is the way to go.

IMO and IME!

+ 1'000'000!!!!!

 

[Tunaman]

I've found the pre EQ DI on virtually every amp I've ever used as being fine and more similar than different across amps.

IF this is true... then I simply cannot justify a Streamliner purchase. If I can grab a GK MB500 for half the price ($425 this weekend or the LMIII for $499) and have SIMILAR output going to the crowd I would save the bucks.

The audience in my gigging situations is mainly hearing my direct output to the board tone set up by the soundman to the PA which is 10x louder than my cab & the cab is thus my personal monitor.

If the audience has the same sound either way, why spend the extra dough? Its the audience that matters, not the little nuisance tones through my personal monitor (which in a gigging situation with your ear next to the damn drummers cymbal is tough to discern as it is) Yes having a different sound for my backline stuff is good but its not nearly as important a great signal\tone to the audience.

I would hope that the 3 tube preamp would put out a more pleasing direct output to the board than a solid state amp, thats what I'm spending the big bucks on, for a better sound to the people! It would be VERY interesting to know if the Streamliner & a SS LM III actually put out the same direct out tone.

 

[KsPiNeSh]

I know its a bizarre request but lets face it the crowd hears what comes out of the Direct Out to the Club\Church etc in most cases. If anyone could do a review of the warmth of the direct out on the Streamliner vs the TC, LM III etc that would be awesome. Its impossible to test a direct out at the store & to me its the MOST important feature of the whole amp. A bad direct out can sink you.

If it's post-EQ, it'll be essentially the same warmth you hear coming out of a cab. Otherwise, it'll be the sound of your bass.

 

[Chef]

I think the answer to that question would be:
"depends if you're sending pre or post eq to the board."

 

[KsPiNeSh]

I would hope that the 3 tube preamp would put out a more pleasing direct output to the board than a solid state amp, thats what I'm spending the big bucks on, for a better sound to the people! It would be VERY interesting to know if the Streamliner & a SS LM III actually put out the same direct out tone.

The warmth comes from the EQ, so if you go pre-EQ... it's going to sound like your bass with no EQ warmth. You have to go POST-EQ to incorporate the EQ into the DI signal chain, and in order to do that sometimes the sacrifice is a little bit of stage tone to wnsure that the signal being sent isn't unmanageable to the board.

 

[smeet]

Even if it's pre-eq, wouldn't the signal be going through some preamp tube stages? Or is it really a direct out before it hits any preamp coloration?

 

[KJung]

Even if it's pre-eq, wouldn't the signal be going through some preamp tube stages? Or is it really a direct out before it hits any preamp coloration?

In most cases IME, it is a simple, buffered signal... so 'pre everything' except the mute switch.... none of the 'knobs' would impact the DI signal when set pre EQ.

Not sure about the Streamliner set-up (i.e., is there any part of the 'tube' gain stage that is fed to the DI in pre EQ mode).

 

[Tunaman]

Even if it's pre-eq, wouldn't the signal be going through some preamp tube stages? Or is it really a direct out before it hits any preamp coloration?

Thats what I'm thinking. I know the GK MB500 flat vs the Streamliner flat is a HUGE difference but not for the direct output??
I would expect that even the PRE-EQ tone would thus have a HUGE difference.
And hence the request for the answer to see if the 3 tubes are incorporated! AH HA!

We have KJung thinking! Will the board get a better tube pre-EQ flat tone vs a modern SS GK MB500 or whatever?

 

[KJung]

IF this is true... then I simply cannot justify a Streamliner purchase. If I can grab a GK MB500 for half the price ($425 this weekend or the LMIII for $499) and have SIMILAR output going to the crowd I would save the bucks.

The audience in my gigging situations is mainly hearing my direct output to the board tone set up by the soundman to the PA which is 10x louder than my cab & the cab is thus my personal monitor.

If the audience has the same sound either way, why spend the extra dough? Its the audience that matters, not the little nuisance tones through my personal monitor (which in a gigging situation with your ear next to the damn drummers cymbal is tough to discern as it is) Yes having a different sound for my backline stuff is good but its not nearly as important a great signal\tone to the audience.

I would hope that the 3 tube preamp would put out a more pleasing direct output to the board than a solid state amp, thats what I'm spending the big bucks on, for a better sound to the people! It would be VERY interesting to know if the Streamliner & a SS LM III actually put out the same direct out tone.

Per Chef's post... depends on pre versus post EQ. Post EQ will send the 'tube warmth' to the board. However, it will also send the EQ cuts and boosts you use, which are typical very 'cab specific'. If you, for example, are boosting the lows to make a very rolled off bass cab sound fat to you, what do you think that will do to the signal the sound person has to deal with when your bass is going into a very hi quality board and through subs and a full range PA. Again, a sound man can deal with that if he can assign some heavy duty EQ power to your channel, but that, to me, is kind of a strange thing.

Even the amp set 'flat' is (in most cases) not 'flat' at all, since there are built in EQ voicings in every head that might sound great with a limited range bass cab, but work against a good tone through the mains.

If you are really interested in warm tube tone to the board, then an investment in a Reddi or whatever might be the best ticket... again, separating your stage EQ from the front of house EQ. In the studio, if you are using your amp post EQ without speakers attached, that of course, can work fine.

 

[Chef]

It's my understanding from reading the manual that the three tubes are used for the gain staging and eq.

I'd bet they have no effect on the pre-eq DI choice, and, they shouldn't. Pre EQ is Pre EQ, and is that way for a reason.
If you want the tube sound in your DI signal, you can easily select post eq.

Or, mic your cab.

 

[Tunaman]

It's my understanding from reading the manual that the three tubes are used for the gain staging and eq.

I'd be they have no effect on the pre-eq DI choice, and, they shouldn't. Pre EQ is Pre EQ, and is that way for a reason.
If you want the tube sound in your DI signal, you can easily select post eq.

So if you're paying for an awesome 3 tube amp, you would want the crowd to hear that thus you would run a post EQ signal to the board. Now to confirm the crowd will get the benefit of the streamliner we should have a post EQ direct out comparison streamliner vs any SS amp. Correct? I would imagine these signals are NOT as similar as Kjung spoke of earlier right?

 

[smeet]

OK, I really really really want to A/B/C these amps:
Streamliner
GK MB Fusion 500
Aguilar TH500 (maybe not really available yet?)

Is there any place in LA (or even better, in the Valley) that has or will have all of these in stock?

 

[KsPiNeSh]

I would expect that even the PRE-EQ tone would thus have a HUGE difference.
And hence the request for the answer to see if the 3 tubes are incorporated! AH HA!

We have KJung thinking! Will the board get a better tube pre-EQ flat tone vs a modern SS GK MB500 or whatever

From the SL900 manual - "An XLR balanced direct output is provided for connection to a PA system or directly into a recording studio console or D/A converter. This signal comes directly from the Tube buffered input stage to the Direct Output. The Direct Out signal may be switched between mic and line level, pre and post EQ, and the audio signal ground may be connected or lifted from pin 1 to eliminate hum due to ground loops."

It sounds like the pre-EQ signal is indeed coming after the first tube stage, and the block diagram also makes it appear that the Pre-EQ signal passes through V1B.

 

[KJung]

So if you're paying for an awesome 3 tube amp, you would want the crowd to hear that thus you would run a post EQ signal to the board. Now to confirm the crowd will get the benefit of the streamliner we should have a post EQ direct out comparison streamliner vs any SS amp. Correct? I would imagine these signals are NOT as similar as Kjung spoke of earlier right?

This is basically correct (i.e., that the post EQ DI signal will carry much of the 'personality' of an amp, whereas the pre EQ DI signal will not). Again, though, remember that the 'awesome tube tone' that you get through (for example) a 212 two way bass cab with a tweeter will still be quite different from that post EQ signal going through a mixing board and then into a multiway PA system with subs, etc., etc.

So, not so simple. To your point, yes the post EQ DI signal of the MB500 will sound VERY different from the post EQ DI signal of the Streamliner, but they also may not sound like ANYTHING close to what you are hearing through your cab on stage.

 

[KJung]

From the SL900 manual - "An XLR balanced direct output is provided for connection to a PA system or directly into a recording studio console or D/A converter. This signal comes directly from the Tube buffered input stage to the Direct Output. The Direct Out signal may be switched between mic and line level, pre and post EQ, and the audio signal ground may be connected or lifted from pin 1 to eliminate hum due to ground loops."

It sounds like the pre-EQ signal is indeed coming after the first tube stage, and the block diagram also makes it appear that the Pre-EQ signal passes through V1B.

I'm sure Andy or Hasbeen will chime in here. I would still assume that the gain knob would not impact the pre EQ DI signal, so you would not hear any sort of 'overdrive' from that gain stage in the pre EQ signal.

Just posting this as a question more than knowing anything for a fact. Curious.

 

[Tunaman]

I'm sure Andy or Hasbeen will chime in here. I would still assume that the gain knob would not impact the pre EQ DI signal, so you would not hear any sort of 'overdrive' from that gain stage in the pre EQ signal.

Just posting this as a question more than knowing anything for a fact. Curious.

Great stuff guys. I don't know about you guys but a lot of gigs I've had a lot of SS over load on the lows & high end clank through the P.A. Nothing I could do about it, thats the signal I gave the soundman & thats what he did with it. I'm hoping the Streamliner can give him a better starting point for a more pleasing tone though the PA.

I recently did my own test through my own mixer & P.A for my Eden Navigator, I just posted the results. Nothing to A\B against however which is why I'm so curious to see the pre-post EQ differences through a PA or a mixer using headphones.

 

[Chef]

If that gain stage had that effect on the pre-eq signal, "I'd call that a mistake."
That's what the post eq option is for, im my opinion.

There's a big difference in why I would want to use pre eq vs post eq.

Perhaps the easiest answer for this user's question, which seems to be "how do I get what I hear to the board is "mic it."

 

[KsPiNeSh]

I'm sure Andy or Hasbeen will chime in here. I would still assume that the gain knob would not impact the pre EQ DI signal, so you would not hear any sort of 'overdrive' from that gain stage in the pre EQ signal.

Just posting this as a question more than knowing anything for a fact. Curious.

Yup... one of the things I love about Genz is that we often get the answers straight from the (aged)horse's mouth

 

[greenboy]

It's my understanding from reading the manual that the three tubes are used for the gain staging and eq.

No flow schematic in the manual? It's possible to use the tubes for both, and still be post tube gain, yet pre EQ.