Check out this post, from part 7 of the main Streamliner thread:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/genz-benz-streamliner-pt-7-a-771116/index52.html#post11336840
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Genz Streamliner 600/900 tone control primer
- Thread starter steve_rolfeca
- Start date
Check out this post, from part 7 of the main Streamliner thread:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/genz-benz-streamliner-pt-7-a-771116/index52.html#post11336840
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
This is very close to how I've been EQ'ing, but with the treble on 12 or slightly higher (no tweeter) and the mids around 3 or so, and it has been the sweetest all around tone I've found on this amp that doesn't sound to be missing something or other...
RTA software back up and running, have to re-run all my traces.
Here's the first set, showing that there's some tone control action going on with the Gain knob. There is a minor effect on the lower frequencies, but it mainly works as a secondary treble control. These were all taken with the Gain button out, Bass at 10 o'clock, Mids just past 2 o'clock (2.5K), and Treble half-way between 10 and 11 o'clock:
I double-checked these curves at varying signal levels, and also against the position of the Volume knob. I was able to confirm that most of the effect on tonal balance happens as a result of how hard you hit the front end. The effect of the Volume knob on tone is pretty minimal, at least at reasonable levels.
PS: These curves were taken with a 1969 greyplate RCA 12AX7A in V1. Compared to the OEM JJ/Ruby, the measured effect of this NOS tube on frequency response is pretty minimal. Of course, the gain and breakup characteristics are different, but that's a subject for the tube rolling thread...
Here's the first set, showing that there's some tone control action going on with the Gain knob. There is a minor effect on the lower frequencies, but it mainly works as a secondary treble control. These were all taken with the Gain button out, Bass at 10 o'clock, Mids just past 2 o'clock (2.5K), and Treble half-way between 10 and 11 o'clock:
I double-checked these curves at varying signal levels, and also against the position of the Volume knob. I was able to confirm that most of the effect on tonal balance happens as a result of how hard you hit the front end. The effect of the Volume knob on tone is pretty minimal, at least at reasonable levels.
PS: These curves were taken with a 1969 greyplate RCA 12AX7A in V1. Compared to the OEM JJ/Ruby, the measured effect of this NOS tube on frequency response is pretty minimal. Of course, the gain and breakup characteristics are different, but that's a subject for the tube rolling thread...
- Dec 18, 2000
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- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
Makes sense since hitting a tube harder generates additional high frequency harmonic content, which isn't the same as using EQ.
Careful with those generalizations, dude. Remember that I'm plotting clean response, and not pushing the preamp into clipping.
Look at the graphs again: With the gain button out, the two traces with the biggest treble rolloff are from the runs where I turned the knob up past noon. Although the spread was reduced when I hit the Gain button, the pattern was still the same: LESS treble as the Gain knob was dialed up!
If you want the flattest, most "modern" response from your Streamliner, back the Gain off to about 9 or 10 o'clock, and raise the Volume to compensate for the loss of level. Or if you wanted to tame a cab with an edgy tweeter, you could try raising the Gain past noon, as an alternative to rolling the Treble back.
Perhaps that rolloff at high gain might help to explain why we often view tube amps as sounding "sweeter" than SS when they're pushed hard?
- Dec 18, 2000
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- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
Yeah, I realized right after I submitted that it depends on voicing around the tube anyway, what actually makes it to the final output.
And yes, I did NOT read the graph legend ; }
And yes, I did NOT read the graph legend ; }
- Feb 12, 2006
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Try doing the same plots on a variety of (all) tube amps, I think you will find this enlightening AND educational.
As you are seeing, there is a LOT going on between the lines on all kinds of amps and unless the designers understand this about (desireable) bass amps in general and how they work overall with a wide variety of settings and levels, the end result will be a one dimensional as the knowledge.
This is the kind of thing that makes simplistic magazine reviews of amps almost meaningless. There are maybe 10 multi-dimensional variables that all interact, and even regular 2 dimensional (flat) plots can not possible do justice as to how an amp will sound and feel in the real world.
As you are seeing, there is a LOT going on between the lines on all kinds of amps and unless the designers understand this about (desireable) bass amps in general and how they work overall with a wide variety of settings and levels, the end result will be a one dimensional as the knowledge.
This is the kind of thing that makes simplistic magazine reviews of amps almost meaningless. There are maybe 10 multi-dimensional variables that all interact, and even regular 2 dimensional (flat) plots can not possible do justice as to how an amp will sound and feel in the real world.
Hey Steve - thanks for putting the effort into this, verrrrrrry useful thread. Agedhorse, thanks as well - you have a nice way of presenting info in an understandable way, when it's very clear that you could bury the rest of us in theory/techno-speak. Much appreciated guys.
I'm still very interested in any other graphs you can find time to create/post, Steve. Especially some showing the "flat-ish" EQ curves you were talking about. I wish I had the know-how to do this kind of stuff on my own!
Thanks!
Thanks!
+1 Great thread, and thanks for doing this!
I continue to be thrilled with the interactive nature of the gain and EQ on this amp. JUST like many all tube amps. It can be a bit of a 'lost in the woods' sort of thing at first, but once you get a feel for it, it is wonderful, and IMO unique in the industry (along with some of the Mesa front end designs).
The only negative is that I would guess many might be drawn to the Streamliner due to its 'simple' front end. It is really powerful, and in some ways, takes a bit more effort up front than the Max 9.2 to totally get comfortable with.
I continue to be thrilled with the interactive nature of the gain and EQ on this amp. JUST like many all tube amps. It can be a bit of a 'lost in the woods' sort of thing at first, but once you get a feel for it, it is wonderful, and IMO unique in the industry (along with some of the Mesa front end designs).
The only negative is that I would guess many might be drawn to the Streamliner due to its 'simple' front end. It is really powerful, and in some ways, takes a bit more effort up front than the Max 9.2 to totally get comfortable with.
jnewmark said:
Dude, this is the tone control thread. Lots of cab stuff over on the main Streamliner thread...
Excuse me, I just thought someone might have some tips on tone control with a Neox 212T. Sorry for the intrusion.
- Feb 16, 2008
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LarryR came by today with his ST900 (that he just got back from GB with the stock tubes) so it was the first chance that i got to play thru one. within 2 seconds i told him that i really liked it and was impressed with it's tone. we compared it to my '07 SVT VR running it into a 4x12 V4 cab loaded with 2512 II's.
i've heard some say that they can be a bit wooly/tubby on the low end, but i didn't find that to be the case at all. (i was running it with all of the tone controls at noon).
i've heard some say that they can be a bit wooly/tubby on the low end, but i didn't find that to be the case at all. (i was running it with all of the tone controls at noon).
- Feb 16, 2008
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maybe compared to the previous standard genz benz amps, but not any more low end than my other bass amps.
Not true at all.
Easy to tweak the Streamliner EQ wise. It's a set it and forget it amp. Perhaps harder to tweak from the internet than when playing but.....
Thans for the tips.
I've had a Streamline 600 for about 5 months.
And I'm crazy about this amp, my tone all the way.
Ran the S600 through a Schroeder 2x15 cab last night, with a P-Bass with flats.
Room shaking tone, Band loved it.
You've got more than I've ever seen, let alone played.
And I'm not good at picking out and describing exactly what I'm hearing. I just know when I like it.
With the limited number of amps that I've directly A-B'd it with, it has more low end and thickness than the others with each amp's EQ at noon.
But to me there is more going on with this tone than just EQ. There is a richness to it I wouldn't ascribe to a particular set of frequencies, even if I could.
