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Genz Streamliner 600/900 tone control primer

#141
^^^
Actually I think this is a good idea.
I played a gig at Whole Foods the first day I got the Streamliner, with all knobs at noon (thinking that would be neutral / flat) into a Berg HT112ER. It was a nightmare. Just wide mush.
Did a second gig at a very crowded party. By then I'd learned to roll off the bass and goose the upper mids. Same cab and similar super wide sound. But with enough edge that I could hear what I was doing.
These days I'm using my Berg HS210 and find that to be more contained (Focused) sounding.
 
#142
I believe that for those that are using a cab such as the Berg HT112ER cab or similarly voiced cab and looking for a non scooped sound either need to change cabs or amps. The two kind of exponentially magnify each other (which I like).

I think this thread is very relevant for the folks that want to utilize the Streamliner but would like to take the tone in a slightly different direction.

For me I do not need that "cut through the mix" thing going. I need a warm round solid foundation and I have been able to get that very easily with a variety of Basses at every gig I've played the Streamliner.

My next gig I plan on using my 62 reissue P Bass which has very little in the mids department. I already know I'll be boosting 2.5k to about 3:00 based on trials in my studio.
 
#143
if people are saying that all they are getting is mud with the 900, then i have to think that it's either a really dark sounding bass or a very scooped cab with no high end. i just compared it to my SVT with a p bass with flats at gig levels thru a couple of my cabs, and it's no darker than the ampeg. and, if you cut the bass control way down on the ST900, it can get super thin. the eq is pretty powerful on it, and i've found it to be as flexible as any other amp that i own (and i own ALOT of them). probably the biggest misconception it that with all of the controls at noon, the user thinks it's flat, but none of my other amps really are either.
 
#145
Last few posts are a big +1. I fought the STM900 with the AE212 and HT112ER for my tone goals. Too much low end and not enough mid presence, although the low end was big and supportive which some would just love. After a few gigs I almost moved it, but tried it with the AE112 and now I love it. It plays real nice with those cabs and I would imagine the HS210 as well and other cabs with mid presence. And turning the knobs from 12 to account for room, cab and different basses also helps.
 
#147
johnk_10 said:
if people are saying that all they are getting is mud with the 900, then i have to think that it's either a really dark sounding bass or a very scooped cab with no high end. i just compared it to my SVT with a p bass with flats at gig levels thru a couple of my cabs, and it's no darker than the ampeg. and, if you cut the bass control way down on the ST900, it can get super thin. the eq is pretty powerful on it, and i've found it to be as flexible as any other amp that i own (and i own ALOT of them). probably the biggest misconception it that with all of the controls at noon, the user thinks it's flat, but none of my other amps really are either.
Click to expand...

For me it's not darkness so much as a very powerful bottom end- it has more treble naturally than my Mesa Walkabout, but much less in the mid and high midrange area. At least for me, I can cut the bass all the way down with the mids at 3 o'clock at 2.5 and it hardly sounds thin to me- there is still a very noticeable bump in the low mids that makes it rumble even with the bass down all the way. I can also cut the 220 mids to around 9 o'clock AND cut the bass all the way and it still doesn't sound thin (in fact this actually seems to extend the deep bass rumble to my ears vs. the boosted 2.5 setting). I haven't been able to find any settings that can get me to anything resembling "thin" (it can get pretty abrasive with the 2.5 mids cranked, but there is still plenty of booty underneath, and by that point finger noise is too much to deal with).

I play through a Bergantino NV610 which has all sorts of mids with other amps, as well as a P-bass and a G&L that are no slouches in the mids either (perhaps the low-mid heavy nature of the sealed cab design is part of the problem, though its been described as a good pair for an Ampeg 810 multiple times). I can get where I want with the Streamliner, but it generally requires cutting bass/ boosting mids on another preamp before the Streamliner. No big deal, and something I'm actually willing to deal with for the time being in order to have such a small rig with such balls on tap...
 
#148
johnk_10 said:
if people are saying that all they are getting is mud with the 900, then i have to think that it's either a really dark sounding bass or a very scooped cab with no high end. i just compared it to my SVT with a p bass with flats at gig levels thru a couple of my cabs, and it's no darker than the ampeg. and, if you cut the bass control way down on the ST900, it can get super thin. the eq is pretty powerful on it, and i've found it to be as flexible as any other amp that i own (and i own ALOT of them). probably the biggest misconception it that with all of the controls at noon, the user thinks it's flat, but none of my other amps really are either.
Click to expand...

So what settings were you using on the Streamliner and what cabs were you using when you compared them. I'm very interested.
 
#149
TC.65 said:
So what settings were you using on the Streamliner and what cabs were you using when you compared them. I'm very interested.
Click to expand...

i started with the controls at noon on both of them, and then ran the gaunlet with the controls on both amps to find their extremes (i.e to make them sound subby, dark, middy, bright etc).

the cabs that i used with them were an accugroove whappo jr, an ampeg V4 4x12 (sealed with 2512 II's) and a 1212/6.

all said and done, i actually found them to be more similar than different.

IMO, if you were used to a using a shuttle 9.0 or something similarly voiced (which i find to be much thinner and brighter), both the streamliner and an SVT might be considered dark sounding, but i don't find them to be dark amps at all.
 
#151
A little OT but how does Streamliner ( Can I assume that the 600 and 900 are identical in sound a trick question ) compare to the Shuttle Max?
Shuttle Max seems much brighter- I keep hearing that word "articulate", which it is.
So do I get the Shuttle Max 6- 9 - 12 or Streamliner 6 or 900?
I like Ampeg sound but want that unmasked clarity as well that Ampeg sometimes "resists"!

I have direct knowledge that bass player Paul Jackson is very supportive of Genz Benz amps. I couldn't get him to be too specific about which amps/ cabs, but I know he borrowed a Shuttle 6 and two Genz cabs for a gig the other day.
 
#152
esoxhntr said:
So, a gig story from the weekend...

I played a small restaurant with a trio - bass, piano, vocal. Not a big room, tables in an "L-shaped" array straight ahead of, and of to the left of the band, a bar off to the left towards the back at a 45 degree angle. Also, a small enclosed entry (glassed in) of about 8' x 5' directly behind the band.

To make a long story very short, with the STL900 and the single 15" cab I took to the gig, it was very difficult to get a useable sound. There are some variables to be considered... The room sounded wooly from the word go, the piano player was plugged in through a Bose column with sub-woofer that went into home theatre action movie mode every time his left hand went below G below middle C, and I should likely have taken a single 10 cab with me as a just in case option. Needless to say, a difficult evening was had by all.

I tried cutting 220, boosting 600, and boosting 2.5. I tried diming the mid and treble, and flatlining the bass. I tilted the cab back, and put it up on a chair. As much as I know that the conditions weren't in my favour, I had to keep trying 'cuz you want the group to get hired again.

Why bring this up here? Well, a number of people on this thread have worked pretty hard to dispell the notion that you can't get this head to run with a fairly flat. The settings information provided here goes a long way to get new users (and at this point we still all pretty much qualify there) zeroed in on useful settings quickly. It has taken Steve and a number of others a good chunk of time and effort to take measurements and post response charts.

Here is my only caution/concern/query... I think that frequency sweeps provide a useful beginning to the issue of tone shaping, but I think it would be useful to get a few gig reports with a focus on cab/room/genre combinations. After all, live performance offers variables that test conditions do not. I realize that I could start a whole 'nother thread, but it seems silly to do that considering all the solid ground work that has already been done here, and that tone shaping on a gig with an amp/cab is a pretty relevant issue.

Or, I could be out to lunch. :eyebrow:
Click to expand...

Dude, your story powerfully resonates with this bass player, keyboard player. This guy put you in a no win situation.. period. He is either an unconscious bully or dimwitted. In either case it would not matter WHAT amp/cab/ surgical eq you brought with you. Fire this fool... I know, he is the leader. Often the most deaf guy on the bandstand.
A sub woofer for a keyboard player in a trio, on the surface, sounds like nonsense unless you are playing pop or reggae quite loudly.
Bass is boss, there can only be ONE bass player.
Violate that rule and suffer the consequences.
You have my sympathy.
Next time mess with his subwoofer!
Though I would occasionally get funny looks from the clueless.. I learned a practice from an excellent pianist a long time ago. While playing bass with him, I always noticed he almost exclusively played with his right hand ONLY. I imagine ( long time ago ) when he soloed his left hand played "G below middle C and higher". This band never sounded muddy regardless of room. Now that I have calmed down, maybe share this story with him. "LAY OFF the notes below whatever YOU say is too low" eg G below middle C.. depending on the room resonance.
 
#154
suraci said:
Dude, your story powerfully resonates with this bass player, keyboard player. This guy put you in a no win situation.. period. He is either an unconscious bully or dimwitted. In either case it would not matter WHAT amp/cab/ surgical eq you brought with you. Fire this fool... I know, he is the leader. Often the most deaf guy on the bandstand.
A sub woofer for a keyboard player in a trio, on the surface, sounds like nonsense unless you are playing pop or reggae quite loudly.
Bass is boss, there can only be ONE bass player.
Violate that rule and suffer the consequences.
You have my sympathy.
Next time mess with his subwoofer!
Though I would occasionally get funny looks from the clueless.. I learned a practice from an excellent pianist a long time ago. While playing bass with him, I always noticed he almost exclusively played with his right hand ONLY. I imagine ( long time ago ) when he soloed his left hand played "G below middle C and higher". This band never sounded muddy regardless of room. Now that I have calmed down, maybe share this story with him. "LAY OFF the notes below whatever YOU say is too low" eg G below middle C.. depending on the room resonance.
Click to expand...

I'm still trying to to stop giggling about the "fire this fool" comment... :D

He actually tried pretty hard to help, and after we struggled with EQ and whatnot through the first few tunes, he agreed that he needed to stay up around middle C with his left hand. I don't know if you are familiar with this Bose system, but it belongs to the vocalist, and the sub is an integrated part of the system. The sub controls are a little sketchy, and not particularly user friendly. We'll be on guard next time, but having said all that, my cab was loading up the room on it's own.

It was kind of funny - the only thing I could think of to say was, "No no, if you look at this frequency plot here on Talkbass, you'll see that these settings really are very flat. So it's not me."

I guess what I'm really starting to wonder is the following:

Is there any way to plot any of the graphs using a bass/amp/cab combo?

Are there any generalities to be found with the STL and certain cab profiles in terms of gig control settings?

I did a gig in a really large room with a Big Band last weekend, and found that a little VL110 could carry the show easily. What has become a pretty standard control set (Bass @ 10:00, Mids (600 Hz) @ 2:00, treble @ 12:30) worked wonderfully.
 
#155
esoxhntr said:
I'm still trying to to stop giggling about the "fire this fool" comment... :D

I don't know if you are familiar with this Bose system, but it belongs to the vocalist, and the sub is an integrated part of the system. The sub controls are a little sketchy, and not particularly user friendly. We'll be on guard next time, but having said all that, my cab was loading up the room on it's own.
Click to expand...
Yes, that Bose configuration is often a problem. They can sound just right or that darn sub woofer can spoil the sound.
I have no understanding of Bose mixer though.
I had a vocalist with the Bose, at times it was great, but with too much bass, it is horrible. I am very sensitive to sub woofers... generally don't appreciate them because they make too much low bass.
Also they were designed to be ( expensive ) to be used in tandem,,, not just one!!!
 
#156
okay, i just recorded a quick mp3 clip (mistakes and all!) with my P bass (w/flatwounds) of my SVT and the streamliner. both amps had their tone controls at noon and i ran it thru a one-way 1x12 2512 II cab, mic'd with a zoom H4n about 6" off of the speaker. can you tell which is which?

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#157
johnk_10 said:
okay, i just recorded a quick mp3 clip (mistakes and all!) with my P bass (w/flatwounds) of my SVT and the streamliner. both amps had their tone controls at noon and i ran it thru a one-way 1x12 2512 II cab, mic'd with a zoom H4n about 6" off of the speaker. can you tell which is which?

Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

Nice! Both sound great to me and quite similar. I'm pure guessing here, but since the second clip had a little bit more low end extension and a slightly more extended upper treble to my ear, I'll guess that was the Streamliner.

Again, both sound wonderful! Nice job and a great tone... nice and punchy and articulate!!!
 

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