Genzler Amplification Club

[BuffaloBob4343]

I was for decades until I hear a properly tuned Faital 12" driver. One can close their eyes and not know it is not a 15. I A/Bed a 15" 3015 and the Faital 12 just to hear the difference in low end. Low end was close but the Faital was easily perceived as more efficient. Some of this could of course be cab design, but I am a 12" convert after playing nothing but 15's all my bass playing life of about 45 years.

I totally concur! I had a Baer ML115 that I liked very much. It has a killer low end extension, yet tight and right. The 6" mid driver provided a very defined and rich mid range with plenty of smooth highs.

When I compared the BA12-3 to the Baer, the low end and mid range was remarkably similar. I'm not sure I could have passed a blindfold test. The primary difference was in the upper mids annd highs. So I now have everything I loved about the ML115 but in a slightly more portable configuration.

 

[svtb15]

Different strokes for different folks.
To me it's the Throatiness of a 15 that i like at times . NOT the Bottom..
I have played 12 cabs that have Much more bottom extension than many 15 cabs that are out there... It's not the bottom for me.. In fact , there are 10s that put out more bottom.
.. Currently for the work that i do, i don't need hifi.. I need Clean power , and like my rig to have a little of its own personality. ..
A 15 that has a smooth top roll off has a different FEEL and attack in the Throaty mids than a 12 does.. Maybe it has to do with beaming at higher freqs???..Some people may hate that but others may find a sweet spot and be in Nirvana.. But i find 15s (tweeter or none) Great for some Rock stuff , Blues, RnB , country etc.. . I think its the way that i hear it..

I have never been a fan of 410s or 810s. Just my taste.. .And have not been a fan of them for many many years. .I had No Idea the scientific reason until i started reading stuff on forums over the past 10 years or so.

To me many 410s and 810s have some serious Comb filtering .. I always heard it, but didn't know what it was or why i didn't like it.

Many Rock guys wind up Boostig too much treble to over compensate for that comb filtering in 410s and 810s . I think that adds to that scooped sound that isn't really my thing.. I often gravitate more towards a single 15 a pair of 15s because they are stacked vertically, sort of a LINE ARRAY.. . And always sounded less convoluted to me..

Im currently still running one or two Genz Uber 115s . I Modded them with a little more internal Damping which smoothed the mids and made a great 115 sound even better. One box is loud enough to use as a monitor on arena size gigs.. FOH of course.
I use 2 of them stacked on my Guitar hero gig.. And times add one more cab when guest guitar heros are on board.
In reality One would do 90% of the time though

I was for decades until I hear a properly tuned Faital 12" driver. One can close their eyes and not know it is not a 15. I A/Bed a 15" 3015 and the Faital 12 just to hear the difference in low end. Low end was close but the Faital was easily perceived as more efficient. Some of this could of course be cab design, but I am a 12" convert after playing nothing but 15's all my bass playing life of about 45 years.

 

[svtb15]

I LIKE flavour for sure..
They are like Crayola crayon multi color box..

This has been discussed a few times since the Bass Array design was first introduced. My thought is that the depth of the LF response from the BA12-3 is so good that it's hard to see what the benefit might be with a 15" version. Certainly there would be a 15" "flavor" to the tone. I'm not saying never but....

With the new BA210-3, there is just a different character to the response with the dual 10" drivers as compared to the single 12" in the BA12-3.
The BA12-3 providing more depth and LF extension but the BA210-3 delivers more "pop" and quickness to the LF and a different low mid blend to the line array component. This discussion is beyond specs and more about the "flavor" of how different size drivers reproduce these frequencies and the width of their sonic footprint......if that make sense.

I do like your Papa Bear, Momma Bear analogy --- I was think of something like that just last night. For now the Papa Bear is 2 x BA210-3.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

See there, svtb 15 needs a 115/4 Now ya gotta do it!

 

[Jeff Genzler]

See there, svtb 15 needs a 115/4 Now ya gotta do it!

Sub'd!!

 

[svtb15]

hahah I wouldn't go that far.. 1/2 way is OK.. lol

See there, svtb 15 needs a 115/4 Now ya gotta do it!

 

[murphy]

1/2 way? like a 215 bass array.....sounds very interesting

 

[Kirk Bryant]

Now yer talkin'!

 

[bebass]

Different strokes for different folks.
To me it's the Throatiness of a 15 that i like at times . NOT the Bottom..
I have played 12 cabs that have Much more bottom extension than many 15 cabs that are out there... It's not the bottom for me.. In fact , there are 10s that put out more bottom.
.. Currently for the work that i do, i don't need hifi.. I need Clean power , and like my rig to have a little of its own personality. ..
A 15 that has a smooth top roll off has a different FEEL and attack in the Throaty mids than a 12 does.. Maybe it has to do with beaming at higher freqs???..Some people may hate that but others may find a sweet spot and be in Nirvana.. But i find 15s (tweeter or none) Great for some Rock stuff , Blues, RnB , country etc.. . I think its the way that i hear it..

I have never been a fan of 410s or 810s. Just my taste.. .And have not been a fan of them for many many years. .I had No Idea the scientific reason until i started reading stuff on forums over the past 10 years or so.

To me many 410s and 810s have some serious Comb filtering .. I always heard it, but didn't know what it was or why i didn't like it.

Many Rock guys wind up Boostig too much treble to over compensate for that comb filtering in 410s and 810s . I think that adds to that scooped sound that isn't really my thing.. I often gravitate more towards a single 15 a pair of 15s because they are stacked vertically, sort of a LINE ARRAY.. . And always sounded less convoluted to me..

Im currently still running one or two Genz Uber 115s . I Modded them with a little more internal Damping which smoothed the mids and made a great 115 sound even better. One box is loud enough to use as a monitor on arena size gigs.. FOH of course.
I use 2 of them stacked on my Guitar hero gig.. And times add one more cab when guest guitar heros are on board.
In reality One would do 90% of the time though

I have always felt similarly. And doing prosound I grew more and more out of liking anything to do with 410s or 810s and always preferred the 215 stack personally. I think many bass players don't realize exactly how much acoustic interference there is out in the audience with the conventional 410 configuration (walk 15 feet over and check it out), which is significantly different than standing right in front of a 410 cab on the stage. In general, I am hoping two 210's with an array design solve the main problem of using 410's and I am thinking with an array design crossing over early that it will result in a much smoother less-filtered audience response while maintaining the 10's flavor.

 

[svtb15]

... Yeah.. Im too old to move something like that myself these days..
I do love MODULAR though... One cab for small gigs. two for larger and 3 for armageddon.. And weirdly i do have to partake in Armageddon now and again. Its keeps me young! And working.
Bills are always coming in!

1/2 way? like a 215 bass array.....sounds very interesting

 

[svtb15]

I agree 100%.. You nailed it..
The 210 Line Array is a Different animal all together.. The Line Array will not do that comb filtering thing that we hate from 410s..
Im guessing Two 210 Line Array cabs would be a stunning thing.. without the trouble we noticed with normal 410 cluster type cabs

I have always felt similarly. And doing prosound I grew more and more out of liking anything to do with 410s or 810s and always preferred the 215 stack personally. I think many bass players don't realize exactly how much acoustic interference there is out in the audience with the conventional 410 configuration (walk 15 feet over and check it out), which is significantly different than standing right in front of a 410 cab on the stage. In general, I am hoping two 210's with an array design solve the main problem of using 410's and I am thinking with an array design crossing over early that it will result in a much smoother less-filtered audience response while maintaining the 10's flavor.

 

[murphy]

... Yeah.. Im too old to move something like that myself these days..
I do love MODULAR though... One cab for small gigs. two for larger and 3 for armageddon.. And weirdly i do have to partake in Armageddon now and again. Its keeps me young! And working.
Bills are always coming in!

But what if total only weighed 60lbs and was on casters that were robust.?
I need one cab solutions ..... two 12 bass arrays strapped together?
I am seriously considering trying 15s again

I never really liked my Bergantino HT12s....loved my HT115
I did love my Euphonic audio 12 cabs , but the drivers blew every week.......and I can no longer carry cabs....one or two....so one on wheels is a must for me....amp and bag sitting on top as I wheel along from car to venue

I love my 410 cabs and 310....but maybe time to rethink again

 

[svtb15]

I would love a ONE cab rig for my local gigs too.. And i often do.... One that puts out more than a 210 or 115... I can stretch it at times with one of those getting a little too close to where i might have an issue.. Im careful.. . Although I haven't had a cab issue in 5 years using the same cabs.. KNOCK ON WOOD!
When i find something. I tend to stay with one thing until its done for good. I don't gear swap too often.. A ONE CAB rig that can attain a little more than a 115.. Can do almost anything for me.

But what if total only weighed 60lbs and was on casters that were robust.?
I need one cab solutions ..... two 12 bass arrays strapped together?
I am seriously considering trying 15s again

I never really liked my Bergantino HT12s....loved my HT115
I did love my Euphonic audio 12 cabs , but the drivers blew every week.......and I can no longer carry cabs....one or two....so one on wheels is a must for me....amp and bag sitting on top as I wheel along from car to venue

I love my 410 cabs and 310....but maybe time to rethink again

 

[rodl2005]

Yep. Same.
A GOOD 115 covers a lotta ground in my world. I've never had/used a 210 that's been as good - for me.
At present, my 2 Fender Bassman Pro Neo 115s handle 95% of my gigs. The only time I need another is if I've got 2 gigs on the same day/night and I can't set up/tear down while the audience is in the room & situations similar.
Again tho. ... I wish there was a Genzler dealer close. Then again. ... at least GAS is only bothering me from TB and there ain't a cab at my local that's calling me

 

[1bassplayinfool]

Just when I've fell in love with my BA12/3 cabs you come out with a new cab... Jeff you are an evil man

 

[bwoodman]

This has been discussed a few times since the Bass Array design was first introduced. My thought is that the depth of the LF response from the BA12-3 is so good that it's hard to see what the benefit might be with a 15" version. Certainly there would be a 15" "flavor" to the tone. I'm not saying never but....

With the new BA210-3, there is just a different character to the response with the dual 10" drivers as compared to the single 12" in the BA12-3.
The BA12-3 providing more depth and LF extension but the BA210-3 delivers more "pop" and quickness to the LF and a different low mid blend to the line array component. This discussion is beyond specs and more about the "flavor" of how different size drivers reproduce these frequencies and the width of their sonic footprint......if that make sense.

I do like your Papa Bear, Momma Bear analogy --- I was think of something like that just last night. For now the Papa Bear is 2 x BA210-3.

Regarding the debate over how this cab (BA210-3) sounds horizontal vs. vertical - what say you? If used as a single cab, it would be ideal in the vertical position with the 800 on top - small footprint, etc.

 

[svtb15]

I figure, If it works for the situation, then is OK .
In Vertical position , you may hear your cab better if you are standing up close to it..
So VERTICAL could be perfectly acceptable if that fits your situation.. It might really enhance your ability to hear yourself on a tight stage. I have never played a cab like that in a live situation. But in practice I;ll bet it is GREAT

 

[bwoodman]

I'm one of many who like a pair of 210 cabs stacked vertically, but lately have been into 12s and 15s - most recently picked up a MG212 to go with my MG800. If the BA210-3 is loud enough as a one-cab situation, I'd go with the vertical orientation for not only the small foot print, but also to be able to hear it well as svtb15 said.

 

[Djadja]

Regarding the debate over how this cab (BA210-3) sounds horizontal vs. vertical - what say you? If used as a single cab, it would be ideal in the vertical position with the 800 on top - small footprint, etc.

At least theoretically, if I understand the technology, you'd end up with beaming. The idea of the line array is that it widens the horizontal dispersion while narrowing the vertical... if you turn it on its side, you'd get the opposite with a wider vertical dispersion and narrower horizontal. Also, as I understand it, the number of drivers in the line array increases this effect, so it would be less of a problem with a single cab turned on its side that it would if, for example, you put two cabs next to one another on their sides (obviously no reason to do that).

There' no reason not to try it, but I would not purchase the cab with that being my plan... you'd just be fighting against the original design intention.

We're looking at one of the trade-offs in the design to allow multiple cabs to be stacked and increase the effect of the line array. I though it might have been cool to place the 10's in a vertical arrangement with the 3's at the top... then by turning a second cab upside down, you'd get the two arrays lined up and have that increased effect, but you wouldn't be able to stack three cabs and take advantage of even more plus the ability of the head to do 2.6 ohms... trade-offs.

 

[John D Harris]

I'd think it would be better to either just tilt it back a bit or put it on a stand of some sort (I use a milk crate with either of my configurations -~unfortunately~ neither of which involves the cab in question).

If you don't care about horizontal dispersion then turn it whichever way you want.