Gigging thoughts after 30 years playing live

[Timmy-Watts]

Hi all. I’m about 30 years playing live gigs pretty consistently. I haven’t kept track, but I’d estimate I’ve done 3000-4000 gigs. I have played all kinds of music on upright and electric basses. Over the years I have played all kinds of gear and all kinds of basses in many situations. While I like gear and versatility and options, I am also a minimalist and efficient. I don’t usually bring anything to a gig that’s not needed and I don’t usually keep gear I’m not using. I have effectively retired from upright bass. So electric bass only since the pandemic started. I’m wondering if some of my recent thoughts are common among my fellow gig veterans.

Gear matters little. All you need is a quality bass and a quality amp. My rig consists of either a jazz bass or a custom Clement PJ 4 string (90% of the time passive fully rolled to the P), a Darkglass Infinity (almost always clean tube, or very little OD, never all out distortion), an Acoustic Image Clarus SL into a Genzler 212.

Most medium to large indoor venues have terrible acoustics, and are designed for their appearance. That means most places are effectively caverns. In a cavern, my compressor and my only effect (Source C4 synth pedal, rarely kicked on for reasons to follow).

I already know that “bedroom tone” doesn’t translate well to live sound. I do tweak things at home at stage volume and that helps. Here’s the thing. In a cavern, it doesn’t matter that I am using a Jazz bass. Compression has little effect. If the synth patches make it through the rest of the wash of cavernous reverb in the placed then it’s way too much. The best thing is literally a passive P bass EQ’d right. Slapping doesn’t cut through (even on an active jazz bass, when it’s boosted enough, it makes a harsh ugly sound in the place) - It’s quieter than playing finger style. Picking on the rock tunes doesn’t cut through. A 5-string? The low notes (below D) just don’t work in those spaces. All the GASsing I do for new gear is in vain because nothing will be heard through the cavernous wash. All that matters is a reasonable stage volume and just being the low end.

Anyone else experiencing the frustration that it’s all in vain? All we have worked for to get a great tone with great effects isn’t going to matter?

 

[bikeplate]

Ive been through that over my 40 years of gigging. Fortunately for me, the last few years, im a member of a couple bands that have dedicated FOH guys. They are real good and make what Im getting on stage, present out front.

 

[Jason Hollar]

I’ve had a similar run and agree with what you’ve said.

Still thumping on the upright - but actually putting together a funky little board for certain non-cavernous pop electric gigs. I sincerely appreciate equipment minimalism but I’m also jonesing for a some funky phaser & chorus in spots.

We’ll see how it goes this season … but there may be some pedals in the classified at some point LoL

 

[Timmy-Watts]

I’ve had a similar run and agree with what you’ve said.

Still thumping on the upright - but actually putting together a funky little board for certain non-cavernous pop electric gigs. I sincerely appreciate equipment minimalism but I’m also jonesing for a some funky phaser & chorus in spots.

We’ll see how it goes this season … but there may be some pedals in the classified at some point LoL

I saw a live band the other night in a decent (non-cavernous) venue where the bassist played with a pick and used chorus. It made the bass “hollow” and “middy” sounding out front.

 

[Jason Hollar]

I saw a live band the other night in a decent (non-cavernous) venue where the bassist played with a pick and used chorus. It made the bass “hollow” and “middy” sounding out front.

I totally get what you’re saying. I may come to the same conclusion and just end up with a fun board at home. Or, it could be super groovy and help whatever cover I’m playing pop a little more!

 

[fourstr00]

I can’t tell you the last time I brought out my 700 watt head, still in its rack case with a tuner and power conditioner. The cavern effect has almost permanently got me using my 250 watt “backup” head with a single 1x12. Even for the biggest stages, it just turns into a monitor and the PA does the heavy lifting.

 

[Bushrod Johnson]

I always just stick to my work as low end/time/rhythm. I sound what I sound like.

 

[bucephylus]

I have similar levels of experience, but somewhat different perspective. IME, there are different kinds of gigs; and the instruments and gear best suited have a LOT of variation. My problem is that, once I find an instrument / gear best suited, I tend to hang onto it. Which has resulted in a bit of accumulation.

No perfect answer. You just do your best and hang on for the ride.

 

[Turn Em Loose]

@Timmy-Watts, good thread. And sounds like we share the same gigging life. Though I may be about 5 years ahead of you. Roots reggae to punk to country to wedding/bar mitzvah bands to cocktail hour jazz to musicals to etc etc etc. I just need to know when, where and how much. (I’ve got country, a musical, a cocktail hour and some reggae-pop-soul on the horizon.)

I’m not a great player. But I’m professional on the gig and always come prepared. And I own a tux.

My takeaway from gigging well over half my life? 1) Play the right note at the right time consistently. Every note matters. 2) Subdivide evenly and accurately. 3) Fretting over FOH sound doesn’t get you anywhere. If the sound person is good that’s great! If they are not good, there’s ab-sooooo-lootlee nuttin you can do about it. So just play. 4) Protect your hearing if you gig on a regular basis.

As to point #3 above: There are a few things I do that seem to be “universal” to get a decent sound. High pass starting at 40hz. Might go up to 60hz. Cut a little 250hz with a narrow Q. Add some 1k-1.5k with a wide Q to add definition but not fret noise/gank. Low pass 3.5k-4k. If my soloed tone sounds a bit (emphasis on “bit”) thin and nasally? That’s good. Reggae is another boat.

 

[FullumMusic]

In cavernous rooms with little to no sound treatment, it's gonna be a losing battle most of the time. In a magically ideal world, the venue would treat the room a bit, and have the PA set up for the room, and a dedicated sound engineer who knows the room. But we're forced to play music in the real world, so...

Packing the place full of humans will help absorb a bunch of reverberations.

Cranking the PA (or if there's no PA, the Amps) loud enough that the direct sound from the speakers is hitting the listeners' ears and overpowering the cavernous reverb. But then it's probably gonna be too loud for the audience.

Playing at lower volumes will help because you'll get less cavernous reverb. Also, the high-power low frequencies are less likely to boom around the room as standing waves. Low E's wavelength is approximately 30 feet long, so big rooms are rife with walls far enough away to create standing bass waves. So, yeah, lower volume combats that, but then you're too low in the mix.

It could drive a reasonable bassist crazy.

When i was on stage at venues like this, i just tried to take a zen attitude. If it sounded decent enough through the monitors and i could hear myself and the rest of the band, i try not to worry about what FOH sounds like and just play with the rest of the band like we did at rehearsal. When i was doing live sound at venues like this, i would get the monitor mix to the point that the band was happy, and then spend the entire show riding the faders and EQ fighting the room and stressing out.

 

[Gervais Cote]

Playing alone in a basement or a room is one thing.
Playing live with a band is another completely different thing.
And 99% of the time I play "loud" with others, my basic 4 string precision bass with Fender flat strings ALWAYS has been the best.
No pedal, no effect, just a good timing with the drummer and everyone is happy.
Oh, and most of the time, my EQ is flat all the way.
Too bad because I’m at an age I can afford all I want (I own 5 basses already!) but I know for a fact I wouldn’t use most of that stuff on a regular basis.

 

[eniac]

Several years ago I was subbing in a 300 seat “cavern” venue, silent stage. We were dialing in at the board. Comes my turn. I send the sound guy my first few notes. He immediately says through my in-ears, “I can definitely work with that”. It wasn’t only a compliment, it was also a bit of a revelation—that the only thing sound techs want is something reasonable, a baseline (sorry) to build upon. My hardware configuration that day was the simplest possible: a passive Precision into a quality passive DI.

I swear, at least half the bass gear industry exists only because so many of us are obsessed with details that don’t matter in the real world—or worse, are just plain counterproductive.

 

[sawzalot]

After gigging since 1989 I agree on the philosophy of keeping it simple.

For the problem of playing in a cavern: I use IEMs and go ampless now, so I make sure I’m giving FOH the best tone I can based on lots of earphone rehearsals and practice, and I let FOH handle the cavern issue.

I agree all the fancy effects are lost, especially any kind of chorus/flange/reverb/delay. I’ve worked very hard at the volume difference between fingers and slap, and found that I just need to not dig in so much with my fingers—problem solved.

Another thing I’ve learned—the fastest and cheapest way to achieve a different tone from my bass is to change the brand/type of strings I put on it. Buying strings is a lot cheaper than buying basses.

 

[s0c9]

Gotta agree with OP for the most part.
My 30 yrs has mostly been playing guitar/lead in rock and Christian contemporary bands.
In 2012 I switched to bass and now do Country (TX - I make and play 10x more) and Christian contemporary, have opened for a number of Natl and Regional acts and haven't played guitar at a gig in quite a few years.
I went from a 4-month no-gig dry spell over 2023-24 boundary - to playing/subbing in 5 bands.
My last 6 gigs - all DI, all IEM, NO bass amp - has had 4 different singers, 3 different guitarists and 4 different drummers - FIVE if you count the missing church drummer where they UN-muted the drum backing trax!
I'm ignoring the 35 songs I've had to learn for them. ALL have had PA provided.. some with FOH, some w/o.
Since I also freelance at FOH when not gigging - I mostly don't worry about my FOH sound.
I run a 5-str Jazz w/ EB Cobalt Flats into a Cali76 Comp to a Khan VTDI and out to FOH. I also have an HX Stomp on the board for when I need specific bass tones.
Nobody on either side of the stage has complained.

 

[ArteK]

I agree that a lot of the energy we spend worrying about minute details of tone I has no bearing on reality once the whole band kicks in.

I think the best we can hope for is that it sounds good to us (and more specifically, to ME) onstage while we’re playing.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Hi all. I’m about 30 years playing live gigs pretty consistently. I haven’t kept track, but I’d estimate I’ve done 3000-4000 gigs. I have played all kinds of music on upright and electric basses. Over the years I have played all kinds of gear and all kinds of basses in many situations. While I like gear and versatility and options, I am also a minimalist and efficient. I don’t usually bring anything to a gig that’s not needed and I don’t usually keep gear I’m not using. I have effectively retired from upright bass. So electric bass only since the pandemic started. I’m wondering if some of my recent thoughts are common among my fellow gig veterans.

Gear matters little. All you need is a quality bass and a quality amp. My rig consists of either a jazz bass or a custom Clement PJ 4 string (90% of the time passive fully rolled to the P), a Darkglass Infinity (almost always clean tube, or very little OD, never all out distortion), an Acoustic Image Clarus SL into a Genzler 212.

Most medium to large indoor venues have terrible acoustics, and are designed for their appearance. That means most places are effectively caverns. In a cavern, my compressor and my only effect (Source C4 synth pedal, rarely kicked on for reasons to follow).

I already know that “bedroom tone” doesn’t translate well to live sound. I do tweak things at home at stage volume and that helps. Here’s the thing. In a cavern, it doesn’t matter that I am using a Jazz bass. Compression has little effect. If the synth patches make it through the rest of the wash of cavernous reverb in the placed then it’s way too much. The best thing is literally a passive P bass EQ’d right. Slapping doesn’t cut through (even on an active jazz bass, when it’s boosted enough, it makes a harsh ugly sound in the place) - It’s quieter than playing finger style. Picking on the rock tunes doesn’t cut through. A 5-string? The low notes (below D) just don’t work in those spaces. All the GASsing I do for new gear is in vain because nothing will be heard through the cavernous wash. All that matters is a reasonable stage volume and just being the low end.

Anyone else experiencing the frustration that it’s all in vain? All we have worked for to get a great tone with great effects isn’t going to matter?

I’ve probably played half of the amount of gigs you’ve played spread out over the last 50 years. The last 20 years has been with FOH support almost exclusively which was a game changer in terms of gear. My rig was
no longer needed to provide the bass for the room. It was only needed to provide a comfort zone for me to perform in and not too much to get in the way of the house sound.

That said, I miss the days of playing in a band ambiently with players that understand dynamics and playing in concert with one another. These days. my WD-800 pumping out 300 watts into my one Eden 210 cab provides all I need for my gig in a Motown Review band with 4 lead singers, 3 horn players, and a 4 piece rhythm section, playing in rooms of anything from smaller clubs to large theaters, to outdoor concerts.

I also record all gigs and in the house and 99% of the time the house mix is perfect. The only time it isn’t is when I get too loud with my rig on stage. And to your point about playing in caverns, it’s easy to be too loud.

The other thing is I use a pretty flat EQ with a slight boost at 165 hz with all controls on my VVT PBj wide open which allows me to hear in the mix at lower volume levels. My signal to the board is a pre-effect flat signal which allows the sound man full control to mix the house properly regardless of it’s acoustical properties.

 

[fhm555]

I’m one year shy of 40 years playing out. The bulk of my experience has been in bars and small halls. When I did play larger stages or outdoors it was always with FOH support, for the smaller places sound was run from the stage and my only involvement in sound setting was lugging equipment in and out and setup/breakdown. With the exception of a ten year period were I was playing out 3~5 nights a week with the same band, it was more 3~5 times a month. There were several exceptions were I played every weekend for the life of the band, and being called to fill in for a night or two, that was the bulk of my experience
my gear has always been an amp(s), speaker cabinet(s), and a bass, all connected with cables. I also used a pocket sized tuner until I got a stompbox tuner that I also used as a mute. I’ve used several different amp and cabinet brands and combinations, and a few different basses, and once bought an SWR Working pro 12 to use as a bass monitor because I was having trouble hearing myself when I was in a house band playing under a 3 sided corrugated tin shed at a campground with a large outdoor dance floor. The only gear I carry besides the usual extra cables, strings, etc, was a quality direct box which has been used a total of four times. I’m a ham and egger who plays out as much for therapy as for my love for music. Given the money I saved on shrinks over the years, I’ve always made money playing in bands, even when I only got fed, or was in a jam band put together a week before the only job we would ever do for a friend’s birthday, anniversary, etc. i’m fortunate to have a brother who is an actual musician who has been my (almost) singular source of playing opportunities. I do get other calls from time to time but as I age out of so many other things, the calls are coming less often than they used to.

 

[ShadowGroover]

All my gigs the past 10+ years are iem, quiet stage. My sound is always in the hands (or plugins) of FOH. The typical "idealized" bass tone is "P."

No matter what bass I play, it is always "sculpted" to sound like a "P." It's like it's the universal tone. It's always the same sound.

I really don't care at this point. It's more important that listeners are happy, and they are. Load in/out are simple. Just my bass (and HPF).

My signature tone lives on through my DAW. I'm good with that, recording original music with several instruments sounding exactly according to my sculpting and mix. Very satisfying: )

Also, useful for woodshed recordings/review.

 

[Timmy-Watts]

In cavernous rooms with little to no sound treatment, it's gonna be a losing battle most of the time. In a magically ideal world, the venue would treat the room a bit, and have the PA set up for the room, and a dedicated sound engineer who knows the room. But we're forced to play music in the real world, so...

Packing the place full of humans will help absorb a bunch of reverberations.

Cranking the PA (or if there's no PA, the Amps) loud enough that the direct sound from the speakers is hitting the listeners' ears and overpowering the cavernous reverb. But then it's probably gonna be too loud for the audience.

Playing at lower volumes will help because you'll get less cavernous reverb. Also, the high-power low frequencies are less likely to boom around the room as standing waves. Low E's wavelength is approximately 30 feet long, so big rooms are rife with walls far enough away to create standing bass waves. So, yeah, lower volume combats that, but then you're too low in the mix.

It could drive a reasonable bassist crazy.

When i was on stage at venues like this, i just tried to take a zen attitude. If it sounded decent enough through the monitors and i could hear myself and the rest of the band, i try not to worry about what FOH sounds like and just play with the rest of the band like we did at rehearsal. When i was doing live sound at venues like this, i would get the monitor mix to the point that the band was happy, and then spend the entire show riding the faders and EQ fighting the room and stressing out.

We do have PA and we play for packed rooms of humans. I high pass my amp probably around 60. I send direct to the PA. Band Leader does the mixing, puts me through the subs only. Those stop probably around 80, and also have the kick. When I do the bass breaks in Brown Eyed Girl and Can’t stop the Feeling, it’s like someone is playing it in the next building over. If I kick the preamp to a more upfront setting, or hit the synth, or slap it, it just sounds bad in those large rooms. Just a quiet wash of low end. I could bump me in the mains but then every other thing is too loud. Getting a Noble or Helix or playing a more expensive bass will not make any difference. Lately I have just been forgetting it and plugging in the in-ears with my own mix. There’s gotta be a better way to sit in a full range mix. I guess my point is that any nuances in sound of the bass will just get lost in the reverb so it really doesn’t matter.

 

[Jefenator]

I used to say, I'd rather do 5 mellow $100 gigs than one crazy hectic $500 gig.
There's a lot of other complications that have caused me to feel that way, besides just the sound. But, yeah... what's the ratio of awesome vs terrible sound experiences in larger venues? Not that good IME.
FWIW I was surprised by the "room" recordings last season with the Salsa band. We set up our own system for vocals & some instruments and my rig covers the outdoor venue - maybe 150 dancers. The bass in those recordings sounded just about perfect to me - like my gear choices almost made a difference.
Same deal with the rockabilly trio. Takes us about 10 minutes to set up and then we rock the freakin' house. The lead dude talks about booking bigger shows & going out on the road for big $$$. Sounds horrible to me. (Good thing he's all talk, no action.)
Maybe I'm a little jaded and defeatist when it comes to larger venues. Or maybe I'm just a fan of keeping things simple.