GoFundMe to Pay for Gear?

[MDBass]

Remember Amanda Palmer? She raised $1.2m on kickstarter to make an album. She then got a huge backlash because she went on tour and requested local musicians play her gigs for free... cuz, Y'no it's good exposure for them.

Last I heard from her, she was crying about losing money on the album because she didn't realize how much it cost to mail all the CDs.

So yes, I'm sure there are scammers.

What part of that is a scam? Everybody got the merchandise they paid for, and she got an appropriate earful of fan backlash for asking musicians to play for exposure.

Sounds like all is right with the world to me.

 

[48thStreetCustom]

Wait...are you the GFM guy in question?

I don't think so. The guy I was referring to plays in a bluegrass-ish band.

 

[48thStreetCustom]

What part of that is a scam? Everybody got the merchandise they paid for, and she got an appropriate earful of fan backlash for asking musicians to play for exposure.

Sounds like all is right with the world to me.

The local musicians didn't get anything. And to hear her cry poverty after getting $1.2m smells like a scam to me.

 

[bolophonic]

I never said anything to that effect.

Begging and panhandling are asking for money is exchange for nothing. A crowdsourcing market is asking for money in exchange for goods or services.

You could call it "bartering", since the goods and/or services are essentially being commissioned, but it's neither begging nor panhandling by definition.

You've never seen someone set up a crowdfunding project with vague, meaningless, or bogus incentives before?

 

[MDBass]

The local musicians didn't get anything.

The premise of the campaign was to fund her album, not pay local musicians; no one contributed to the campaign was scammed.

The fact that she got local players to do it for free meant it was somehow worth it to them, no one forced them to play for her.

I certainly wouldn't have.

 

[MDBass]

You've never seen someone set up a crowdfunding project with vague, meaningless, or bogus incentives before?

Never said that either, though for an album campaign no I honestly haven't; it's pretty difficult to make any money running one if you aren't offering anything of value in return.

Unless, of course, you're that guy who made over $40k who was asking for $20 to make a potato salad

The OP mentioned very specific, tangible incentives in this particular campaign, so I thought that's what we were discussing

 

[Luke19Boarder]

Are there scammers on crowd funding sites? Unfortunately, Yes.

Are there also scammers on Craigslist? Ebay? Talkbass? On the phone? In your email? Literally anywhere else a buck can be made dishonestly? Unfortunately, yes.

Obviously, we should be careful who we give our money to. But to completely write off crowd funding sites because of its potential seems (to me) like an overreaction.

 

[40Hz]

I've yet to see or hear of a single music related crowdsourcing campaign doing anything fraudulent.

It's been successful for bands and artists ranging from more mainstream like Grace Potter and Andy Allo to more niche like Protest the Hero, Twelve Foot Ninja & vulfpeck, and is very arguably a more viable model for bands and artists than a record deal.

As it was spectacularly successful for Amanda Palmer (of Dresen Dolls), and it was (IMO) money well spent when I contributed. But she took pains to let contributors know that the money (all of it) would be used to fund the road tour of an elaborate show based on an already written and recorded album she had produced with money out of her own pocket. It wasn't to put something together out of nothing.

Having 14 years worth of street cred and a history of close communication with her fans might have had something to do with how fast (and for how much) her campaign succeeded.

But rather than outright fraud, I'm more speaking about less known bands that do things like solicit funds for recording an album. I've had more than a few of those "projects" go sideways on me. And with Gofundme (unlike Kickstarter) the campaign does not have to reach it's goal to get access to the money that paid in. One reason why it's become so popular. Gofundme is also a purely "beg" site. There are virtually no restrictions on what you can ask money for - as opposed to the "product" and "project" orientation of Kickstarter.

Hey, if it works for you, it works for you. But anytime somebody says "please help me buy something so I can do something" I'd like to know a lot more about you - and it - before I support it.

But that's me. YMMV.

 

[GregT]

I'm glad I was raised by a real man. He taught me to work for what I wanted. It has served me well. Proud of my dad for instilling good American hard-working values. Get a job, beggar.

 

[MDBass]

As it was spectacularly successful for Amanda Palmer (of Dresen Dolls), and it was (IMO) money well spent when I contributed. But she took pains to let contributors know that the money (all of it) would be used to fund the road tour of an elaborate show based on an already written and recorded album she had produced with money out of her own pocket. It wasn't to put something together out of nothing.

Having 14 years worth of street cred and a history of close communication with her fans might have had something to do with how fast (and for how much) her campaign succeeded.

But rather than outright fraud, I'm more speaking about less known bands that do things like solicit funds for recording an album. I've had more than a few of those "projects" go sideways on me. And with Gofundme (unlike Kickstarter) the campaign does not have to reach it's goal to get access to the money that paid in. One reason why it's become so popular. Gofundme is also a purely "beg" site. There are virtually no restrictions on what you can ask money for - as opposed to the "product" and "project" orientation of Kickstarter.

Hey, if it works for you, it works for you. But anytime somebody says "please help me buy something so I can do something" I'd like to know a lot more about you - and it - before I support it.

But that's me. YMMV.

Didn't realize her campaign was for the tour and NOT the album...definitely makes her asking for free musicians a doubly bad idea.

 

[48thStreetCustom]

The local musicians didn't get anything.

The premise of the campaign was to fund her album, not pay local musicians; no one contributed to the campaign was scammed.

The fact that she got local players to do it for free meant it was somehow worth it to them, no one forced them to play for her.

I certainly wouldn't have.

You're absolutely right. I acknowledge that. But I think not paying her musicians speaks volumes about her ethics. And crying poverty because she had to actually mail the CDs as promised makes me wonder about her handling of the donations. What did she spend that $1.2m on?

Was it a scam? Well, to quote Mike Wallace, "If it looks like a duck and waddles like a duck..."

 

[40Hz]

Didn't realize her campaign was for the tour and NOT the album...definitely makes her asking for free musicians a doubly bad idea.

Yeah. That went back and forth and got done to death before the smoke cleared.

I read the arguments and answers on both sides. And while I heard where she was coming from by proposing that, not too many people saw it the same way. AFAIK the tour did pay locals when it later became an issue. But I think the charges in some quarters that she was trying to exploit local talent weren't true, and everything got blown way out of proportion.

Bound to be expected when you crack a megabuck on a campaign that was asking for something like a tenth of that. Probably if it only hit $100K people wouldn't have felt the same way since it was announced as a "group thing" for local musicians to share the stage at the different venues. And nobody started talking money until later when the bigger budget became available.

I have mixed feeling about how that all went. Both sides had good arguments. I'm not sure either side was entirely right - or completely wrong.

Like Cindy Lauper so famously said: "Money changes everything."

 

[DLemos]

Bad taste.

 

[40Hz]

You're absolutely right. I acknowledge that. But I think not paying her musicians speaks volumes about her ethics. And crying poverty because she had to actually mail the CDs as promised makes me wonder about her handling of the donations. What did she spend that $1.2m on?

Was it a scam? Well, to quote Mike Wallace, "If it looks like a duck and waddles like a duck..."

That's a big leap to a conclusion that doesn't really hold up. I wouldn't characterize it as a scam. They delivered on what they promised. There were, however, misunderstandings and hard feelings that cropped up after the fact once the amount of gold in that pot became public. Then the web got onto it and things started getting really stupid.

How was the money spent? None of my business really. It delivered as promised when promised - grousing about shipping charges aside. Seriously, does Megadeath, or McCartney, Aerosmith, or anybody else ever provide a detailed balance sheet and P&L of their last tour? Maybe Amanda Palmer's case was slightly different in that it implied an unprecedented level of transparency. But by the same token, it didn't actually say that a full accounting of everything spent was forthcoming. Those who objected tried to make it seem so. But there's a big difference between somebody wishing you said something, and you actually having said it.

I also think there was a lot of sour grapes and green-eyed monster roaming the web following her success with that campaign. A lot of the remarks were pretty poisonous. And for no real good reason.

But whatever. It's a footnote in rock history now. And probably an anomaly as well. She was in the right place, with the right pitch, at precisely the right time. And people were open to it.

So do legendary moments in marketing get written.

 

[wintremute]

I'm fine with it. Nobody is forcing anyone to donate.

This is how I feel.

For the most part, I don't think I have the right to tell people how to spend their money. Similarly, (for the most part) I don't think I have the right to tell people how to ASK for money. As long as they're honest, and the time and place aren't insensitive, then that's all that matters to me. I determine if I want to give or if I don't want to give.

 

[Ellery]

That's a great idea I should do that!! "Underskilled amateur bassist seeks boutique instrument to serve as a status symbol to compensate for lack of talent". Not like I'd be misrepresenting, let's see how much I can rake in!

 

[FingerDub]

Self promotion is the new gold rush. You have to make yourself famous, no one really gets "discovered" anymore like in the 70's. The music company execs can basically pick who they want to become mainstream famous. And you don't need a record contract to do it on your own either. Check out MattyB on YouTube. The kid is shamelessly promoted with good quality videos and is making bank off YouTube ads alone and he may never see mainstream and might not care.

There is massive gaggle of people out there willing to live vicariously through others and who are willing support things that are infact meaningless and distant except in their own imaginations. I wish it weren't this way (virtual begging) but I applaud them for trying, and even if they raise no cash at all, its still attention and press.

 

[48thStreetCustom]

That's a big leap to a conclusion that doesn't really hold up. I wouldn't characterize it as a scam. They delivered on what they promised. There were, however, misunderstandings and hard feelings that cropped up after the fact once the amount of gold in that pot became public. Then the web got onto it and things started getting really stupid.

How was the money spent? None of my business really. It delivered as promised when promised - grousing about shipping charges aside. Seriously, does Megadeath, or McCartney, Aerosmith, or anybody else ever provide a detailed balance sheet and P&L of their last tour? Maybe Amanda Palmer's case was slightly different in that it implied an unprecedented level of transparency. But by the same token, it didn't actually say that a full accounting of everything spent was forthcoming. Those who objected tried to make it seem so. But there's a big difference between somebody wishing you said something, and you actually having said it.

I also think there was a lot of sour grapes and green-eyed monster roaming the web following her success with that campaign. A lot of the remarks were pretty poisonous. And for no real good reason.

But whatever. It's a footnote in rock history now. And probably an anomaly as well. She was in the right place, with the right pitch, at precisely the right time. And people were open to it.

So do legendary moments in marketing get written.

Yup. She delivered what she promised. But what did the extra $1.1m for an album that was supposed to cost $100k go to?

According to google, she only sold 85k albums. $1.2m on 85k CDs with zero profit seems like a scam to me. Thats over $14 per CD. Warner Bros makes a profit and they sell CDs for $9.99.

 

[Anachronism]

Oh my God, custom bass builds being funded by people voluntarily giving money for promised goods and services! What a f---ing nightmare!

 

[pie_man_25]

They also crowdfund both board and video games. I can definitely understand the aversion of some to the business model since it CAN seem like panhandling, and I have never actually backed anything myself either, but it's a thing regardless of how you feel about it - and I will admit to having been tempted to back stuff as well.