GoFundMe to Pay for Gear?

[40Hz]

Yup. She delivered what she promised. But what did the extra $1.1m for an album that was supposed to cost $100k go to?

According to google, she only sold 85k albums. $1.2m on $85k CDs with zero profit seems like a scam to me. Thats over $14 per CD.

It wasn't just for an album. It was for album distribution and a major road tour.

Maybe $14 per CD sounds high to you. I was just at one of the big blues festivals in PA last month. There wasn't a CD to be had for much less than $20 in the merch booths. Big names we're actually less expensive than the up & comers in some cases.

In the meantime, go check out the prices on Amazon for the CD in question. It's called Who Killed Amanda Palmer. It's selling for around $50 (average) per copy. So it's pretty obvious its worth something to her fans. Also check out the prices for vinyl (~$40) - and the books. Those run from $35 for the basic one to around $200 for the fancy hardcover Neil Gaiman contributed to.

As far as shipping, try checking out what it costs to send a CD, or the price of a mailer that will allow it to arrive in one piece. Or the cost a fulfillment house will charge to pick, pack, label and ship one. If you're moving that kind of volume, you aren't going to do it in a garage by yourself, or with a couple of folding tables and ten people being paid minimum.

And since promises were made and money accepted, you're going to want to keep records and proof of shipment. Preferably by a third party who does it for a living so it's not just your say so that it really happened if somebody decides to go after you.

I've run fulfillment operations. It's nowhere near as sample as "put it in a box, slap a label on, and call UPS or run it over to the Post Office. There are all sorts of rules you need to follow.

Maybe it because I've worked in corporations where I used to do cost analysis and financial planning. But to me, $1.2M for what that lady was doing with that project was running it on a pretty lean budget. At least IMO based on the amount if risk I'd be willing to take on if it were me.

 

[lfmn16]

Just a new way of begging. Now you don't have to look people in the eye while you humiliate yourself by being too lazy to work for what you want. Way to put the internet to good use ... NOT.

 

[Spidey2112]

Duuuuuuuuuude... jabroni... origin? And how much do you want for it?

 

[Bassnomer]

I don't see a problem with a band doing it, especially when they offer incentives. It's certainly not as bad as this girl I know from school. She have a GFM page so she could go on vacation. Her reason: "I've always wanted to travel." LOL ME TOO

 

[48thStreetCustom]

It wasn't just for an album. It was for album distribution and a major road tour.

Maybe $14 per CD sounds high to you. I was just at one of the big blues festivals in PA last month. There wasn't a CD to be had for much less than $20 in the merch booths. Big names we're actually less expensive than the up & comers in some cases.

In the meantime, go check out the prices on Amazon for the CD in question. It's called Who Killed Amanda Palmer. It's selling for around $50 (average) per copy. So it's pretty obvious its worth something to her fans. Also check out the prices for vinyl (~$40) - and the books. Those run from $35 for the basic one to around $200 for the fancy hardcover Neil Gaiman contributed to.

As far as shipping, try checking out what it costs to send a CD, or the price of a mailer that will allow it to arrive in one piece. Or the cost a fulfillment house will charge to pick, pack, label and ship one. If you're moving that kind of volume, you aren't going to do it in a garage by yourself, or with a couple of folding tables and ten people being paid minimum.

And since promises were made and money accepted, you're going to want to keep records and proof of shipment. Preferably by a third party who does it for a living so it's not judt your say so that it really happened.

I've run fulfillment operations. It's nowhere near as sample as "put it in a box, slap a label on, and call UPS or run it over to the Post Office. There are all sorts of rules you need to follow.

Maybe it because I've worked in corporations where I used to do cost analysis and financial planning. But to me, $1.2M for what that lady was doing with that project was running it on a pretty lean budget. At least IMO based on the amount if risk I'd be willing to take on if it were me.

But she charged admission for her tour. It wasn't free. If her tour didn't cover costs, than she's a bad business person.

And I do know how much it cost to mail a CD because I've worked on several direct mail projects. DM costs about $.27 per piece including design, printing, postage, labeling and stuffing. Let's say CDs brought that price up to $1 each (and I'm sure at 85k, you could get that number much lower), that's $85k. That leaves $1,115,000. Taxes, management, studio are going to take up most of that. But it doesn't leave her broke.

 

[48thStreetCustom]

Duuuuuuuuuude... jabroni... origin? And how much do you want for it?

I donnoh, that's what the Iron Shiek used to call everyone on WWF. I think it means a schlub. Or a punter, as the Irish say.

 

[allenhumble]

Do the work first.....then get paid. This is how most of us make it happen.....

 

[leesbrushes]

Just a new way of begging. Now you don't have to look people in the eye while you humiliate yourself by being too lazy to work for what you want. Way to put the internet to good use ... NOT.

Agreed.
You post and then occasionally check for funds without standing on a corner with a sign.
I was raised different.
I work hard for what I have and everyone that I know that have had things handed to them are missing a little something called appreciation and pride in accomplishing goals through grit. Thanks

 

[allenhumble]

Agreed.
You post and then occasionally check for funds without standing on a corner with a sign.
I was raised different.
I work hard for what I have and everyone that I know that have had things handed to them are missing a little something called appreciation and pride in accomplishing goals through grit. Thanks

Well said

 

[wintremute]

Do the work first.....then get paid. This is how most of us make it happen.....

If I was to order a custom bass from a luthier here on TalkBass, do I get to wait until it's done and sent to me and then I pay for it? Or do I have to put some or all of the money down up-front before they'll even start working on it?

 

[fdeck]

Do the work first.....then get paid. This is how most of us make it happen.....

Lots of businesses get their start by operating on borrowed money.

 

[tbasstreble11]

1. Get off my lawn

2. I don't care if it has a catchy, new name

3. Okay, it's more like virtual "let me squeegee your windshield for spare change"

4. Seriously, get off my lawn

Hahaha solid gold

 

[Lava]

I certainly don't mind, and have donated to helping out fellow musicians when they are faced with hard times. Death, sickness and touring mishaps. They are almost always started by someone else trying to help, and that's wonderful. I don't however appreciate perfectly capable musicians looking for what seems like a handout.

 

[40Hz]

But she charged admission for her tour. It wasn't free. If her tour didn't cover costs, than she's a bad business person.

And I do know how much it cost to mail a CD because I've worked on several direct mail projects. DM costs about $.27 per piece including design, printing, postage, labeling and stuffing. Let's say CDs brought that price up to $1 each (and I'm sure at 85k, you could get that number much lower), that's $85k. That leaves $1,115,000. Taxes, management, studio are going to take up most of that. But it doesn't leave her broke.

Seriously? Where are you getting those prices? 0.27 per for DM all in? You aren't going to pay that up around where I am. I've rolled out software distribution CDs (cheaper than audio) for a mega corp. And even ordering in units of 100K I couldn't touch that number dealing with one of the best duplicators in the industry.

You're also still ignoring the tour expenses. And the book publishing that went with the incentives. And the pile of other things that came out of wildly exceeding the target. When the campaign was originally announced ($100K) it was to fund album production and distribution. Basically to create a record company to manufacture and ship the already mastered album. Everything else that followed was either a stretch goal - or just added on by Ms. Palmer on her own after the campaign closed. And for what it's worth, her campaign ran out of time before it ran out of contributors. Which I think says something.

Whatever. I'm not an apologist for Amanda Palmer. She writes a good song, puts on a decent show, does good by her fans, and has paid more dues than many musicians out there. And through it all still remained true to what she's about musically. That's called "professionalism" and "artistic integrity." And it's something I admire her for.

I'm sorry whatever Ms. Palmer did has offended you. I don't see the problem myself. But that's me. I just can't get into the neo-socialist criticism that surrounds music on the one hand, or the unmitigated rank capitalist justifications for restrictively ridiculous IP legislation and greed on the other. I live in a simpler world when it comes to music.

If somebody puts out a good album (judged solely by the only criteria worth considering - the fact people actually like your work enough to buy it); or puts on a good show - and people want to see - and sometimes pay scalper prices to get in, who am I to say it's all wrong? Music is a luxury product and/or a leisure activity. And music recording and stage shows are a business. If somebody does well because of something they created, and people (none of whom are having a gun to held their head) flock to buy or see it, I don't see anything wrong with it. And if some musician does very well, it's still no cause to go trashing them for it.

I contributed to the campaign because I enjoyed that weirdness that was Dresden Dolls. And also (unapologetically) because they were out of the greater Boston music scene - which was my old stomping grounds in my "pro" days, and therefor it kindles some strong sentiments and conjures up fond memories for me. If you're any good (like Mark Sandman and Morphine were for example) and you're out of Boston - I'm your fan.

Back to Amanda Palmer's project. Right now I've got my book, vinyl and CD disks as promised - and all is well with me. Did Ms. Palmer make out like a bandit on the deal? I neither know nor care. I wanted to see her do the show, and get me some "product." And all of that was delivered without any undue fuss; after the fact "explanations;" or some idiot begging forgiveness because "Unforeseen circumstances make it impossible for us to complete our project or honor the incentives that were promised to our supporters. We're deeply saddened by this turn of events and ask for your forgiveness and understanding - and we humbly request that you be kind." notices. Which I have gotten from more than a few other music projects.

If she made money, and hasn't felt obligated to publish her full P&L from the project, I don't have a problem with that. Her campaign was on Kickstarter - not Gofundme. Kickstarter is unabashedly about funding projects with a business objective in mind. People who go there understand that. Gofundme is a tin cup for whoever is looking for some money. A different world altogether. With diferent rules and expectations.

All my expectations were met by Ms. Palmer's campaign. She delivered. As promised.

 

[wintremute]

They also crowdfund both board and video games. I can definitely understand the aversion of some to the business model since it CAN seem like panhandling, and I have never actually backed anything myself either, but it's a thing regardless of how you feel about it - and I will admit to having been tempted to back stuff as well.

My wife and I are big into board games, and I've backed a few on KickStarter. I've never been disappointed with what I've purchased. It's a way for small and independents to get their product out there. I think of it as looking for many angel investors. And some of the games I bought would probably have never been made (and definitely not made at the higher quality they were) if it wasn't for people paying ahead for a future product.

So similarly, if someone wants to promise certain incentives for different levels of financial backing (such as autographed CDs, backstage passes, etc), I see nothing wrong with that as long as they deliver what they promise.

It seems that a lot of people on this thread are calling it begging, or asking for handouts. I just don't see the correlation. If you give X amount of dollars, then you receive Y. That's not a handout, that's a purchase. You may not like what the seller is going to do with the money, you may not like that what you're paying for may not happen until months later, and you may not like what you is offered in exchange for your money...but it's not begging. If you don't like the merchandise, then don't shop.

 

[Anachronism]

Do the work first.....then get paid. This is how most of us make it happen.....

Except for those who get paid in advance. The world, and the music industry in particular, is full of people paying and getting paid in advance. The sort of crowdfunding OP describes is just a modern mix of patronage and advance purchasing, neither of which is new to the music business.
While this system can, and undoubtedly will, be exploited by unscrupulous and lazy people who take the money and never deliver (or deliver badly), such wrongdoing is hardly unique to internet crowdfunding ventures.

I work hard for what I have and everyone that I know that have had things handed to them are missing a little something called appreciation and pride in accomplishing goals through grit. Thanks

Mighty high horse you got there... Still, it seems to me that if the folks OP describes deliver on their promises, they'll be doing quite a lot of hard work--giving lessons, putting on concerts, writing songs...

 

[twinjet]

I've seen a couple YouTube videos lately of musician starting GoFundMe campaigns to pay for custom instruments to be built. I'm not going to post them here because my intention isn't to bash them personally. But I want to see what TB thinks about it.

Both videos I saw (and I'm sure there's plenty more that I haven't seen) are for national touring bands, so it's not like they're just some jabroni in his basement. They both offer incentives for donations ($20-ticket to a gig, $50-private lesson, $500-a private concert in your home, $1000-a song written on the new bass).

What do you guys think? Is this just as legit as Ben Folds and Mike Doughty starting GoFundMe campaigns to pay for their albums? Is helping a musician get his dream instrument contributing to their art?

Let's hear it TB.

An ex-roommate of mine (former maid of honor, for those who remember...) tried GoFundMe so she and her boyfriend could afford a down payment on a house. She worked as an LP manager for Fred Meyer (Kroger) and was making a good bunch of money. Her boyfriend was just graduating with a 4-yr degree in mechanical engineering, with a promising internship having just given him a summer of invaluable experience.

In comparison, I'd totally give my $100 to the musician before my ex-roommate. Previous relationship/feelings aside, what she did was worse than asking for music cash. On a significantly larger scale.

I will admit, I was quite happy that nobody donated.

 

[40Hz]

Please.

If you are marketable, record companies still fund your album. I haven't seen Taylor Swift begging for money. And don't kid yourself; this is begging.

And the example given, isn't for production costs - it's so somebody can buy a custom made instrument. Pride is a disappearing trait.

This.

 

[pie_man_25]

My wife and I are big into board games, and I've backed a few on KickStarter. I've never been disappointed with what I've purchased. It's a way for small and independents to get their product out there. I think of it as looking for many angel investors. And some of the games I bought would probably have never been made (and definitely not made at the higher quality they were) if it wasn't for people paying ahead for a future product.

So similarly, if someone wants to promise certain incentives for different levels of financial backing (such as autographed CDs, backstage passes, etc), I see nothing wrong with that as long as they deliver what they promise.

It seems that a lot of people on this thread are calling it begging, or asking for handouts. I just don't see the correlation. If you give X amount of dollars, then you receive Y. That's not a handout, that's a purchase. You may not like what the seller is going to do with the money, you may not like that what you're paying for may not happen until months later, and you may not like what you is offered in exchange for your money...but it's not begging. If you don't like the merchandise, then don't shop.

That's awesome, I thought really hard about backing the new Battletech PC title, but I decided that, having only played the mechwarrior games in a much lonelier time, I didn't really know enough about it to benefit from stuff like a banner mailed to you based on your preferred faction, and my PC sucks so I really won't benefit from a copy of the game itself until I get a new one anyways.

 

[fdeck]

I backed the Teensy 3.6 on Kickstarter:

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