Going in the studio.. having second thoughts.

[lowfreq33]

If you're walking in with a Streamliner and he wants to put you through a Sansamp... He's an amateur. Anyone with a "one size fits all" attitude is not going to produce stellar results.

 

[joe_f]

This scenario is so familiar to me, I can't even believe I'm reading it. Those Sansamp goons seem to be all over the place. I can't tell you how many times I've had a ratty, beat-up old Sansamp shoved in my face like it's the only way to record an electric bass. One occasion involved a very well-appointed studio with all sorts of pro outboard gear. There were racks of pre's and channel strips all over the place. TAB, Summit, Avalon, you name it. What was their go-to bass DI? A $69 battery-powered Hartke stompbox. MF had been blowing them out a month before.

The simple answer is that this kind of producer/engineer doesn't know any better. Anything they did learn (likely from someone equally bass-indifferent) was centered around the vocal/guitar/drums and operating the DAW. Try showing up with your own equipment and you'll see it right away. The signal paths I usually bring are a Raven Labs PHA-1 into a Countryman, and a U5. Both capable of providing a good, strong, clean signal for recording. I get frowns every time. The reactions range from "What the heck is that stuff?" to (Awkward pause) "Hey, let's try the Sansamp!" One guy took one look at the U5, shook his head and sighed, "Man, I hate those things."

So on their end, it's a question of what they know how to do, which generally amounts to a pretty limited bag of tricks. I don't mean to over-generalize here. A well-rounded producer/engineer won't have these issues. But it sounds like you're dealing with one of those dyed-in-the-wool "rock guys"; the type who wear their limitations like a badge of honor. "Hey man, you don't need all that fancy stuff for rock and roll. See that Revox in the corner with the dirty heads? We're gonna mix down to that so we can get the SOUND."

My point of view is that the limited framework they're operating in is their own problem. When I've got money, time, and effort in a project, I will push to try to make it right. When it comes down to it, everyone else will be scrambling to get what they want out of the project and no one will care enough to advocate for you. You have to do it yourself. I hate to say it, but I never did get a decent sound in one of those "rock" studios, between the Sansamps and the obnoxious compression. Thud and string noise, that's about it. The rock producer's job is done when the bass blends into the kick drum, where it can't interfere with anything else. The mind-boggling thing is how little all the technical innovation of the last few decades has changed how things are done (for some). That's a clear sign of complacency to me, and when I see it, my instinct is to put my wallet back in my pocket and run the other way. Whether you do the project there or not, be your own advocate and don't back down. The rest of them do NOT know better than you.

 

[QweziRider]

I lREALLY like the idea of running all 3 signals in this particular case.

I just think, in this age where tracks are not limited by tape for the most part, what can it hurt to get too much? You never know what track or combination not originally thought of will be the ticket for a given song. I just hate limiting options right off the bat without even trying.

 

[gustobassman]

If you're walking in with a Streamliner and he wants to put you through a Sansamp... He's an amateur. Anyone with a "one size fits all" attitude is not going to produce stellar results.

To be honest, i don't think he had the faintest idea of what a Streamliner was. The ol' deer in headlights look.

I just think, in this age where tracks are not limited by tape for the most part, what can it hurt to get too much? You never know what track or combination not originally thought of will be the ticket for a given song. I just hate limiting options right off the bat without even trying.

I'm primarily used to doing 2 signals anyway, maybe i can be just enough of a PITA to get 3 and make this guy work for his money.

 

[Joe Louvar]

Looking for some advice on this one. One of my bands is recording this weekend and I've been holding back some concerns i have.

The guitarist picked the studio we are recording at. Full-bore, gung-ho, all or nothing on this location. Being that i know how bad the rest of the guys want this recording i feel obligated to go along. Problem is i was not at all impressed by the recordings the engineer played for us. It's definitely a "metal" studio - i heard ZERO bass on each recording he played for us.

We are a melodic metal band, layers and dynamics are very important. So i asked the engineer to play something with some audible bass - he laughs and puts on some crappy ska band. I was actually insulted by that. I asked to hear something else and was given the cold shoulder as the other guys went back to talking about "how big the guitars will sound". After that incident there is no way I (if it was up to me), would EVER record at this facility.

We then discussed how i want to record the bass and the engineer kept changing it around to "we'll use the Sansamp". I had to say over and over again that i want to go direct from my Streamliner (which has produced some great recordings), to which he replied "yeah and we'll put it through the Sansamp".

I've been low on work lately and have sacrificed a bit to be able to help pay for this project. I'm not sure how to voice my concern that this facility/engineer was not my idea and that i'm gonna be upset if i comes out to less than my standards. I've been holding this back for the last month and we start tracking sunday.

Should i just wait until mixing and then voice my opinions, or say something before we start? The guys are so pumped on this, i don't want to be Captain Bringdown, you know?

Yeah, personally I’d probably go along with whatever the majority of the band members wanted - AS LONG AS IT WAS FREE. If I was expected pay money, I’d put my foot down - tell my band mates what you posted here and tell that engineer to go pound sand and find a different engineer and or studio.

 

[WayneS]

Subscribed.

 

[QweziRider]

...maybe i can be just enough of a PITA to get 3 and make this guy work for his money.

THAT'S the spirit!!

 

[DanGouge]

What the studio guy is really saying is, I can't be bothered to figure out how to set up a different box to take the bass signal, I don't want to do any additional eq work or anything, so just do this my way because I don't care.

 

[g4string]

If you don't mind us asking, how much is ea member pitching in? What's the purpose of the recording?

Fwiw, as an option....get a good DI (REDDI, Avalon, GT Brick, Palmer) and track at home or at some other studio that might be considerably cheaper. Defer the rock studio experience and cost to the guitards and drumitard. Once your done tracking a good clean signal, give your tracks to rock studio for import through said Sansamp. You can walk away with no-little money invested....while the other members can do as they wish. Problem solved.

 

[g4string]

How come the guitard gets final say in studio? Sounds like the guitard is more of a problem than the offending sound engineer. Of the guitar guy is acting like this now, how is he going to act when mix down is going on? Might want to nip the guitar players all or nothing tude' now while you have the opportunity.

 

[gustobassman]

How come the guitard gets final say in studio? Sounds like the guitard is more of a problem than the offending sound engineer. Of the guitar guy is acting like this now, how is he going to act when mix down is going on? Might want to nip the guitar players all or nothing tude' now while you have the opportunity.

OK, so here's the thing.. We recently got back together after about 8 years of not playing together. We had mild success before we split up.. A few big things have happened since we got back together and there is some cool stuff in the works. The guys are really pumped and working. Anyway, since the hiatus I kept going musically, a couple of them didn't play hardly at all, much less out in a club.. Ever since the "breakup" I have always felt like i left them hanging even though it was a mutual thing. We recorded 3 ep's and never a full length. The renewed energy & opportunities have really got them going and they want to get the darn album done. I kinda feel like i owe them something. That's just me.

Being more "mature" and less "influenced" over the years has really put a different perspective on what's important to each member. Therefore my dilemma.

 

[Halvorsen]

I've been a victim of this mentality before.

If you don't speak up and stay vigilant throughout the mixing process, this "sound engineer" is going to cover the entirety of the low end with the guitars and your tone is going to be reduced to nothing but some faint distorted upper mid clank, but without any real note definition. (The Sansamp is great for that by the way.) He'll justify this by saying if he pushed your bass up any more it would overload the mix.

The recording will sound a lot weaker than it could have if the bass was used properly to do it's intended job rather than the guitars. And forget dynamics. Expect everything to be WAY over-compressed. That's the way lazy engineers avoid actually working on mixing levels properly.

In reality the way to make a metal band's mix sound huge and full in the low end is to use the bass guitar to fill out the lows and the guitars to be slotted so their low end overlaps just slightly with the bass guitars low mids.

Good luck, I see a lot of frustration in your future......

 

[electracoyote]

Well, engineers come in all sorts of packages.

If this particular engineer is the "I'm the Svengali, I know best" sort, you're screwed.

Good engineers want the entire band happy with the product, which usually includes the band sitting in on mixing and making decisions.

Again, if you can't make this arrangement with the engineer, you take what you get.

I wouldn't want it that way either.

 

[g4string]

OK, so here's the thing.. We recently got back together after about 8 years of not playing together. We had mild success before we split up.. A few big things have happened since we got back together and there is some cool stuff in the works. The guys are really pumped and working. Anyway, since the hiatus I kept going musically, a couple of them didn't play hardly at all, much less out in a club.. Ever since the "breakup" I have always felt like i left them hanging even though it was a mutual thing. We recorded 3 ep's and never a full length. The renewed energy & opportunities have really got them going and they want to get the darn album done. I kinda feel like i owe them something. That's just me.

Being more "mature" and less "influenced" over the years has really put a different perspective on what's important to each member. Therefore my dilemma.

This confuses me more.....you've recorded 3 EP's!!! 3 EP's!!! After going through the recording process with the same group of guys you should have an idea of what works and what doesn't by now.....hiatus or not. After 3 EP's under your belt as a band you should have learned from your successes and failures in the studio. Either your surrounded by fools who enjoy making the same mistakes in life over and over again. Or you guys like to waste to money for the sake of having a CD.

Do you look back at your 3 previous recordings and perceive them as audio successes or failures? Do you look back at your past recordings as amateurish sounding recordings with room for drastic improvements......if so; are you guys making the same kinds of decisions, going to the same kind of studios, repeating the same techniques for tracking. If so, expect the same results.

If your hindsight vision makes you think your past recordings were solid and well recorded AND the proposed methods of the said studio are major deviations from past practice, expect a finished product with sub par quality.

Studios are like car lots. Some sound engineers are like used car salesman. You can get a $2000 used car from any lot in town. Why do you have to get your $2000 car from "XYZ" dealer that only sells POS beater $2000 cars. Why not shop around and see if other lots/dealers have cleaner/nicer cars for $2000. See where I'm going with this?

Shop around, there are other budget oriented studios who have guys who can (and wiling) to put out a good product. Me, I would be somewhat concerned about your guitars players all or nothing attitude towards this studio. Sounds like he has some sort of personal/vested interest in this studio that he has not come clean about.....could be a number of things. He has an interest nonetheless. Otherwise, why would a grown *** man act like such a 2y/o about such a silly thing. I mean, protools sounds the same no matter where you record. Unless this studio has tons of outboard analog gear and is revered for having a "sound", I cant see being emotionally attached to any studio. The only way I would be attached to a studio was if it had a high ratio of low cost/high quality AND had competent and efficient people working there. Although kind hard to get low cost and high quality if you have a bunch of morons running the place.....I digress

 

[gustobassman]

This confuses me more.....you've recorded 3 EP's!!! 3 EP's!!! After going through the recording process with the same group of guys you should have an idea of what works and what doesn't by now.....hiatus or not. After 3 EP's under your belt as a band you should have learned from your successes and failures in the studio. Either your surrounded by fools who enjoy making the same mistakes in life over and over again. Or you guys like to waste to money for the sake of having a CD.

Do you look back at your 3 previous recordings and perceive them as audio successes or failures? Do you look back at your past recordings as amateurish sounding recordings with room for drastic improvements......if so; are you guys making the same kinds of decisions, going to the same kind of studios, repeating the same techniques for tracking. If so, expect the same results.

If your hindsight vision makes you think your past recordings were solid and well recorded AND the proposed methods of the said studio are major deviations from past practice, expect a finished product with sub par quality.

Studios are like car lots. Some sound engineers are like used car salesman. You can get a $2000 used car from any lot in town. Why do you have to get your $2000 car from "XYZ" dealer that only sells POS beater $2000 cars. Why not shop around and see if other lots/dealers have cleaner/nicer cars for $2000. See where I'm going with this?

Shop around, there are other budget oriented studios who have guys who can (and wiling) to put out a good product. Me, I would be somewhat concerned about your guitars players all or nothing attitude towards this studio. Sounds like he has some sort of personal/vested interest in this studio that he has not come clean about.....could be a number of things. He has an interest nonetheless. Otherwise, why would a grown *** man act like such a 2y/o about such a silly thing. I mean, protools sounds the same no matter where you record. Unless this studio has tons of outboard analog gear and is revered for having a "sound", I cant see being emotionally attached to any studio. The only way I would be attached to a studio was if it had a high ratio of low cost/high quality AND had competent and efficient people working there. Although kind hard to get low cost and high quality if you have a bunch of morons running the place.....I digress

Wow, lighten up Francis . We were younger and had "backing" which fell through a couple times. If you cant release an album with no money do an EP right? Or another one if that's what you get dealt with. The music industry blows. jeez we all know that.... Our recordings were great. We were broke. We got hosed. If you are young and without knowledge you learn from your mistakes. The "album" never had a chance at that time.

So getting beyond your rant (which i do appreciate), we (8 years later with some serious interest) were offered a great deal this time around, and that caught my (broke-a$$) ear. we have new songs, a new name and a new brand. It wasn't until i heard the recordings THAT HAD COME FROM THIS PARTICULAR STUDIO, or the lousy comments from the engineer did i have second thoughts.

 

[Mike N]

Is the engineer insisting you use his P Bass for the recordings, too?

 

[g4string]

Wow, lighten up Francis . We were younger and had "backing" which fell through a couple times. If you cant release an album with no money do an EP right? Or another one if that's what you get dealt with. The music industry blows. jeez we all know that.... Our recordings were great. We were broke. We got hosed. If you are young and without knowledge you learn from your mistakes. The "album" never had a chance at that time.

So getting beyond your rant (which i do appreciate), we (8 years later with some serious interest) were offered a great deal this time around, and that caught my (broke-a$$) ear. we have new songs, a new name and a new brand. It wasn't until i heard the recordings THAT HAD COME FROM THIS PARTICULAR STUDIO, or the lousy comments from the engineer did i have second thoughts.

Francis here....feeling lighter. Lol

Wasn't trying toact spooled or spool you up. Just was trying to make sure you guys aren't following the same proven track record for failure. Best of luck. Im glad I'm not in your shoes. No matter what you do, remember to stay calm, respectul, and sympathetic when you confront the members of your band. Nothing good will come from being abrasive and confrontational.

 

[marko138]

This confuses me more.....you've recorded 3 EP's!!! 3 EP's!!! After going through the recording process with the same group of guys you should have an idea of what works and what doesn't by now.....hiatus or not. After 3 EP's under your belt as a band you should have learned from your successes and failures in the studio. Either your surrounded by fools who enjoy making the same mistakes in life over and over again. Or you guys like to waste to money for the sake of having a CD.

Do you look back at your 3 previous recordings and perceive them as audio successes or failures? Do you look back at your past recordings as amateurish sounding recordings with room for drastic improvements......if so; are you guys making the same kinds of decisions, going to the same kind of studios, repeating the same techniques for tracking. If so, expect the same results.

If your hindsight vision makes you think your past recordings were solid and well recorded AND the proposed methods of the said studio are major deviations from past practice, expect a finished product with sub par quality.

Studios are like car lots. Some sound engineers are like used car salesman. You can get a $2000 used car from any lot in town. Why do you have to get your $2000 car from "XYZ" dealer that only sells POS beater $2000 cars. Why not shop around and see if other lots/dealers have cleaner/nicer cars for $2000. See where I'm going with this?

Shop around, there are other budget oriented studios who have guys who can (and wiling) to put out a good product. Me, I would be somewhat concerned about your guitars players all or nothing attitude towards this studio. Sounds like he has some sort of personal/vested interest in this studio that he has not come clean about.....could be a number of things. He has an interest nonetheless. Otherwise, why would a grown *** man act like such a 2y/o about such a silly thing. I mean, protools sounds the same no matter where you record. Unless this studio has tons of outboard analog gear and is revered for having a "sound", I cant see being emotionally attached to any studio. The only way I would be attached to a studio was if it had a high ratio of low cost/high quality AND had competent and efficient people working there. Although kind hard to get low cost and high quality if you have a bunch of morons running the place.....I digress

I think you're spot on.

 

[MonkeyBass]

The engineer sounds like a cocky a$$hole that doesn't know jack about jack. You can own all the gear, doesn't make you a good engineer. Stick up for yourself and find someone who's a professional.

 

[electracoyote]

The engineer sounds like a cocky a$$hole that doesn't know jack about jack. You can own all the gear, doesn't make you a good engineer. Stick up for yourself and find someone who's a professional.

I'd have to agree, and to take the point a step further, the ideal (for me and most musicians I've worked with) is the engineer is there to do just that--sound engineer the recording. You have sounds in your head, he does everything in his power to get them tracked and make them happen.

Each and every time I have encountered an ENGINEER who thinks he is a PRODUCER, ARRANGER, or MANAGER, I've had this problem. Those are separate entities. If the band wants to produce and arrange the music, you need to draw the line before the knob twiddler takes over your project against your wishes.

And yeah, these self-appointed engineer/producer/arranger types are always giant arrogant PITA's.

I feel for the OP and hope he can get his band's support here. Everyone deserves to be happy with and proud of a studio achievement.