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Good read on "The Great Debate"

I'd like to go back to the original article and not the mangled one floating around. I don't have access to IEEE, and I think Milbert overstepped their "Fair Use" of this paper.

There is a pdf photocopy here
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Note there is no need for your "sic" annotation. The original does not have the typos as the Milbert manual copy does.

I will not mutilate the paper worst by trying to copy screen shots. Or retyping it myself.

The authors list what they found were the differences from the study. They did not list anything else. One subject did say they heard something else. This subject could here the ripple intermodulation distortion and this is disclosed in the conclusion. All the extra sonic properties often repeated in forums is not mentioned in the conclusion. If they exist, other sonic properties didn't seem worth mentioning, but ripple intermodulation distortion was?

Essentially - there is no differences in the sound according to 17 pro and semi-pro guitarist.

It's not actually indisputable, it just hasn't yet been disputed by any equal study since it was published.

Hey man, thanks for posting that, it's a bit less straining on my limited spellcheck-tolerance. However, I still don't believe you are doing the paper justice by attributing that conclusion to it. I think they are a bit more fair and realistic about their findings than you give them credit for. The fact that not all of this is included in their conclusion might be a case of prioritizing their actual findings in their, honestly, very short paper.

They do, in fact, mention possible differences that the paper fails to address in full, and their analysis of harmonic distortion shows significant differences, especially in the 3., 6., 7., and 9. harmonic overtones. Which is in complete accordance with the common knowledge about tube and solid state, afaik. Even if the distorted properties of the amps weren't properly researched, which the paper accepts is the case, according to your own logic they don't measure the same and thus, probably don't sound the same. These differences might be subtle, but with differences of about 1 - 1.5 db at various frequencies that have an important harmonic relationship with the fundamental, I would say they make for two legitimately different types of overdrive, wouldn't you agree?

Martin
 
Here's some more fuel to the fire of ss modeling tube performance.

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I'm aware the modeling/transfer function designs used were within the linear region of the power curve in these tests and MI amps are overdriven somewhat in a lot of cases to get their tonal signature.

You can actually play with this yourself using various small value resistors in series with your cabinets. The frequency response will start to follow the impedance curve of the cabinet.

It's a waste to heat, but as the original paper of this thread points out you can do the same thing with EQ.

Hi-Fi amps are going to frown on EQ, especially old Hi-Fi, in the end it measures and sounds the same.
 
Hey man, thanks for posting that, it's a bit less straining on my limited spellcheck-tolerance. However, I still don't believe you are doing the paper justice by attributing that conclusion to it. I think they are a bit more fair and realistic about their findings than you give them credit for. The fact that not all of this is included in their conclusion might be a case of prioritizing their actual findings in their, honestly, very short paper.

They do, in fact, mention possible differences that the paper fails to address in full, and their analysis of harmonic distortion shows significant differences, especially in the 3., 6., 7., and 9. harmonic overtones. Which is in complete accordance with the common knowledge about tube and solid state, afaik. Even if the distorted properties of the amps weren't properly researched, which the paper accepts is the case, according to your own logic they don't measure the same and thus, probably don't sound the same. These differences might be subtle, but with differences of about 1 - 1.5 db at various frequencies that have an important harmonic relationship with the fundamental, I would say they make for two legitimately different types of overdrive, wouldn't you agree?

Martin

Would you agree that the conclusion agrees with the abstract?

What other papers have been done since this one? Maybe they dive into harmonic contents, but I have to say it's extremely easy to add odd, even, phase, ... harmonics into a signal today.
 
Joe Louvar said:
Wow, this thread is 11 pages long and still going - even the OP took a break or stopped posting two days ago (03-13-2012, 11:04 PM) post #158, lol. ;)

EDIT: Round and round - lol. :D

Nope, I'm still here! I don't post often, though. This is the most active I've been at posting since I joined in '05. I'm a lurker ;)

Still fascinated by the topic of comparative testing with regards to amps. So, this thread has been a bit of a candy store for me. The topic does go round & round, but, new points keep surfacing & I'm enjoying the discussion. Thanks for the info guys!
 
They do, in fact, mention possible differences that the paper fails to address in full, and their analysis of harmonic distortion shows significant differences, especially in the 3., 6., 7., and 9. harmonic overtones. Which is in complete accordance with the common knowledge about tube and solid state, afaik.

The problem is, there is no common "knowledge" about it at all. The commonly presented even vs. odd harmonics theory was debunked right after it had been presented and a brief moment with a spectrum analyser and a handful of circuits will also show there are no universal conclusions one could draw about harmonic spectrums of tube or solid-state amps. The overall circuit architecture makes all the difference, not the used devises.
 
Would you agree that the conclusion agrees with the abstract?

What other papers have been done since this one? Maybe they dive into harmonic contents, but I have to say it's extremely easy to add odd, even, phase, ... harmonics into a signal today.

The abstract makes no claim about anything other than the purpose of the paper and its basis in an observation of market tendencies, so I don't really understand your question. Please elaborate if I am missing your point.

I have no idea of the amount literature on this subject, although I suspect it is substantial. As for harmonics, I think you are right that this factor can be emulated with modern technology to the point where any remaining differences will be negligible, and probably much smaller than the differences between individual amp models. I have spent enough time with full tube amps in supplied backlines to know the 'classic' differences in sound from 'classic' tube and ss amps (very vague terms, i know, but hopefully meaningful), but since I have never owned a full tube amp for any long period of time, I can neither refute nor completely subscribe to the ideas of an inherently different 'feel', so I will not add any opinions to that part of the debate.

I am with you all the way, insofar as you think 'common knowledge' can and should be challenged, but I also believe that the ideal of an open mind should work both ways. The necessary rhetoric question is: would you accept any tests that proved the existence of an inherent quality to tube equipment that could not be emulated digitally? From reading some of your posts I have to admit that I doubt it.

The point of my previous posts, and I will repeat it and stand by it, was that this paper, even if it had been the only one ever written, falls short in a number of areas very relevant to this discussion and in fact acknowledges these shortcomings in several places. Even if the data is solid, it does not address the issue of harmonic distortion to any reasonable extent, and some of the sample sizes are simply too small to be reliable, even if the methods are sound.

Therefore, I think you are overstretching the scientific basis of your viewpoint by repeatedly arguing that the paper in question has not yet been debunked. Maybe it hasn't, but that really doesn't matter when the findings are so far from conclusive in regards to this discussion.

Peace

Martin

EDIT: Here is an interesting review. Anecdotal evidence, perhaps, but an interesting read none the less: http://www.epinions.com/content_3726614660?sb=1
 
If sag were the only factor in why many prefer tube amps over SS amps, we wouldn't be having this conversation. It's a major one, no doubt, but it's not everything.

Very true. I see it as a step in the right direction....or call it a "feature". If all it involves is a $1 resistor, why the hell not? Could switch it in and out, have a "sag switch" feature to set your amp apart from the rest for all of $5. Then turn it over to the marketing team and let them run with it.:p
 
The abstract makes no claim about anything other than the purpose of the paper and its basis in an observation of market tendencies, so I don't really understand your question. Please elaborate if I am missing your point.

I have no idea of the amount literature on this subject, although I suspect it is substantial. As for harmonics, I think you are right that this factor can be emulated with modern technology to the point where any remaining differences will be negligible, and probably much smaller than the differences between individual amp models. I have spent enough time with full tube amps in supplied backlines to know the 'classic' differences in sound from 'classic' tube and ss amps (very vague terms, i know, but hopefully meaningful), but since I have never owned a full tube amp for any long period of time, I can neither refute nor completely subscribe to the ideas of an inherently different 'feel', so I will not add any opinions to that part of the debate.

I am with you all the way, insofar as you think 'common knowledge' can and should be challenged, but I also believe that the ideal of an open mind should work both ways. The necessary rhetoric question is: would you accept any tests that proved the existence of an inherent quality to tube equipment that could not be emulated digitally? From reading some of your posts I have to admit that I doubt it.

The point of my previous posts, and I will repeat it and stand by it, was that this paper, even if it had been the only one ever written, falls short in a number of areas very relevant to this discussion and in fact acknowledges these shortcomings in several places. Even if the data is solid, it does not address the issue of harmonic distortion to any reasonable extent, and some of the sample sizes are simply too small to be reliable, even if the methods are sound.

Therefore, I think you are overstretching the scientific basis of your viewpoint by repeatedly arguing that the paper in question has not yet been debunked. Maybe it hasn't, but that really doesn't matter when the findings are so far from conclusive in regards to this discussion.

Peace

Martin

EDIT: Here is an interesting review. Anecdotal evidence, perhaps, but an interesting read none the less: The Tube vs Solid State Amp debate is slowly but surely coming to an end! - Tube vs Solid State Amps - Epinions.com

Looks like you missed your chance to be a peer reviewer for 1981. Maybe next time.

I'd be glad to accept any paper or study done that is done as scientifically as this one.
Plural of anecdotal is not evidence.

Pro and semi pro guitarist can't hear difference. The tube amp involved had tube distortion, fender twin, yet they couldn't hear it. It conclusive.

17 test subjects is plenty big enough sample size for 2 choices. Flip a coin and see how long it takes to determine it's random.

Looks like you did have an agenda. I get accused of it all the time. I'll still provide my viewpoint as you can yours.
 
The problem is, there is no common "knowledge" about it at all. The commonly presented even vs. odd harmonics theory was debunked right after it had been presented and a brief moment with a spectrum analyser and a handful of circuits will also show there are no universal conclusions one could draw about harmonic spectrums of tube or solid-state amps. The overall circuit architecture makes all the difference, not the used devises.


This is an excellent point. And it can easily be measured. Every PC is capable of doing a spectrum to show this to be true.
 
Might be time for a Peavey plug.....

They're a company that isn't afraid to take chances and try/develop new technology. Sometimes it ends in failure or misses the mark, but it pushes the technology forward.

Some interesting reading in Chapter 3 here on their Trans-tube series. Their emulators don't get it all right either, but, some good thoughts from Hartley on what it is we like so much about tube amps, things that aren't inherent in an SS design, and some things that need tweaking, or inventing, in order to get them to act more like tubes.


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will33 said:
Very true. I see it as a step in the right direction....or call it a "feature". If all it involves is a $1 resistor, why the hell not? Could switch it in and out, have a "sag switch" feature to set your amp apart from the rest for all of $5. Then turn it over to the marketing team and let them run with it.:p

There are already numerous tube amps with switchable sag, as well as the ability to switch the power tube from pentode to triode mode.
 
Looks like you missed your chance to be a peer reviewer for 1981. Maybe next time.

I'd be glad to accept any paper or study done that is done as scientifically as this one.
Plural of anecdotal is not evidence.

Pro and semi pro guitarist can't hear difference. The tube amp involved had tube distortion, fender twin, yet they couldn't hear it. It conclusive.

17 test subjects is plenty big enough sample size for 2 choices. Flip a coin and see how long it takes to determine it's random.

Looks like you did have an agenda. I get accused of it all the time. I'll still provide my viewpoint as you can yours.

No, it is not conclusive. Preamp distortion was not explored, poweramp distortion was cut short and therefore had a ridiculously small sample size. Measurements of harmonic content showed differences that might have been audible had these aspects been tested thoroughly. The authors accept this and point it out, please reread the finer points in the paper that you so valiantly defend.

I have no agenda other than constructive debate, and I frankly can't guess what you think my agenda might be. I have no alternative test for you, nor do I take any stand on whether or not tube sound can be digitally emulated in a satisfactory manner, although I personally prefer hybrid amps so it's not really my problem. I also have less actual experience with some amps than many other posters, and insufficient tech savvy to be any real authority in this debate, and yes, I wasn't around in 1981. In fact I wasn't even born in 1981.

These are facts about me. None of them make the shortcomings of the paper in regards to this discussion any less real. I never suggested using anecdotes over science, I just pointed out that this scientific test is largely irrelevant.

I will also continue to provide my viewpoints, in the interest of constructive debate, but I think I'll direct them somewhere else now. You consistently ignore the parts of my posts that deal with the relevance of the paper, and I am done repeating myself. I hope you believe me when I say that I actually respect your opinion and only seek to illustrate the logical flaws of using the 1981 test to bolster your argument. Your viewpoint might very well be the essence of truth and justice, but you can't use that paper to prove it, which is all I was ever saying to you.

Martin
 
LOL!

Having been 20 years old in 1981 and knowing what was available in tube and solid state back then, there was absolutely no one on earth back then that I ever came in contact with on any level in the business who said SS amps sounded like tube amps. Many didn't want tube amps and preferred SS, but nobody ever confused one for the other unless they were clueless to the differences. Nobody. Zero. Zip. Nada. OK, not nobody...a handful of kooks with an agenda might have said it. Otherwise, I can't think of a single person.
 
No, it is not conclusive. Preamp distortion was not explored, poweramp distortion was cut short and therefore had a ridiculously small sample size. Measurements of harmonic content showed differences that might have been audible had these aspects been tested thoroughly. The authors accept this and point it out, please reread the finer points in the paper that you so valiantly defend.

I have no agenda other than constructive debate, and I frankly can't guess what you think my agenda might be. I have no alternative test for you, nor do I take any stand on whether or not tube sound can be digitally emulated in a satisfactory manner, although I personally prefer hybrid amps so it's not really my problem. I also have less actual experience with some amps than many other posters, and insufficient tech savvy to be any real authority in this debate, and yes, I wasn't around in 1981. In fact I wasn't even born in 1981.

These are facts about me. None of them make the shortcomings of the paper in regards to this discussion any less real. I never suggested using anecdotes over science, I just pointed out that this scientific test is largely irrelevant.

I will also continue to provide my viewpoints, in the interest of constructive debate, but I think I'll direct them somewhere else now. You consistently ignore the parts of my posts that deal with the relevance of the paper, and I am done repeating myself. I hope you believe me when I say that I actually respect your opinion and only seek to illustrate the logical flaws of using the 1981 test to bolster your argument. Your viewpoint might very well be the essence of truth and justice, but you can't use that paper to prove it, which is all I was ever saying to you.

Martin

It was published by IEEE. Nobody said "Go back and finish it". It is conclusive.

This is paper another source of information. I can use it.

There is plenty of other actual evidence, but that's all covered in other threads and elsewhere in publications and studies. The topic of this thread is this paper.

Focusing on edge cases of what happens at extreme levels on harmonics was not key to the test. And it's not typical. Transistor fuzz boxes are plenty popular. Normal playing levels are typical

We're getting nowhere. That's my viewpoint. You can go ahead and reply and I'll let you have the last word.
 
The overall circuit architecture makes all the difference, not the used devises.

A very key point....... but one that sidesteps and wiggles around the fact that really one cannot use the same circuits with the two types of device..... they are not that identical.... So inevitably there are circuits which are characteristic of tubes, and less usable or totally unusable with "transistors". One can often use circuits of the same "general type', but not ones that are "identical".* Comparisons, DBT or not, can therefore never really separate the device from its usage.

So it comes back around (despite efforts to avoid that) to the difference in devices. Each type device is inevitably used in its characteristic circuits, which then becomes somewhat indistinguishable from the device itself.

It happens that there ARE characteristic differences in harmonic structure between tubes with their circuits, and at least bipolar transistors with their circuits. Both even/odd and harmonic order differences exist, typical of the usages. They don't typically show up in the strict linear range.

That is almost by definition, if you think about the matter logically.

Distortion is the name for any difference between input and output other than overall amplitude..... In the "linear" range there isn't much if any difference between input and output, by definition.

Therefore, if there is a difference in sound, one of the two must produce more distortion, or a different type of distortion, otherwise the outputs would be identical. But in the "linear" range, distortion is quite small, and clearly the opportunity for a difference is also quite small. And, by extension, very hard to find.

But in the real world, input levels are not controlled, outputs are loaded with various unsuitable loads, and clipping is common, at the very least on transients or peaks.

So another really deadly fault in the DBT test is that the units were not used in ways typical of actual guitar usage..... In the linear unclipped and un-distorted range, one SHOULD NOT be surprised that most people cannot distinguish any difference between tubes and transistors..... if the circuits are competently designed, there will BE little difference.

it is totally improper to attempt to spin the test as having relevance past what was actually done, what was actually tested...... Which seems to be that if you do your best to match two circuits in frequency response, and run both at levels which are virtually undistorted, the total audible difference between them is going to be small.

Seamonkey apparently has somewhat of an agenda, evidently an unquestioning faith that any "methodologically valid" test is always golden as proof (or disproof) of a theory which it purports to test, and unfailing energy in promoting his beliefs.

I'm fine with that.... it's really his problem, after all.....

I do not share his apparent beliefs. Neither life not science is that simple. There are ALWAYS other considerations, unforseen issues, and things which the test didn't test.

As in this case.

* The one exception is the devices which Kirkwood Rough had at NAMM many years ago. They were "solid state", of a somewhat obsolete type normally seen only in textbooks now, and were an essentially direct duplicate in performance of a generic 12AX7. They measured same, and sounded same..... because they BEHAVED the same... INHERENTLY.

No other solid state device I have any familiarity with has that sort of performance.

He seems to be a T.B. member, BTW.....
 
I vaguely remember "solid state tubes". Seems they were crazy expensive, but that was the claim that they were just like the tubes except made with solid state technology. Seemed to me like a solution without a problem at the time, but if they worked that well to where they're indistinguishable from a real 12ax7, maybe there's something in the obsolete technology that holds a key to making solid state behave just like tube amps?
 
I recently asked "Brian" at IK on another forum, here, and he confirmed that "Ampeg" engineers were involved. He didn't say if they were Ampeg Ampeg, SLM Ampeg, or LOUD Ampeg.

Orange, Fender also had their engineers for their amps. Soldano for himself.

Maybe I'll look for his post.

This doesn't have much to do with the subject paper. But it would be good to see a new official blind tests around amplifiers both tube and solid state with cabinets versus modelers.

I checked with George McKale, who would know if anyone does, since he was "Mr SVT" at SLM (HD, II, 2PRO, CL, VR), and there was ZERO input from him, and none from anyone else he knows of with regard to the SVX.

The SVX thing started when SLM was still pre-Loud........... no idea what has happened since.

Also NO idea what the SVX folks mean by "Ampeg engineers tuning" the SVX.... Not SLM ones, for sure.