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Good read on "The Great Debate"

#261
Tl;Dr:

There's a faint ray of hope that years of measurement and testing have failed to uncover audible differences that transform themselves from undetectable to profound when controls for bias are removed, but that are not actually caused by bias.
 
#265
LiquidMidnight said:
The peer review comments are for the authors only and rebuttals would be in subsequent publications if people attempted to disconfirm the original study's findings.
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Thank you. I made it through several pages on peer review at the IEEE site but never saw this stated. Peer review worked quiet a bit differently in my part of the fisheries game, but I also usually saw the papers over and over long before they were published.
 
#266
LiquidMidnight said:
No, it's not. While simple design can help cut down on sample size for optimal statistical power, sampling error and the possibility of type I and type II error is still too great with an n of 17, bimodal distribution or not. Seventeen participants are what undergrad psych majors have when they present their independent research projects at their university's poster day. It's not what theories and major research findings are staked upon. A paper like this wouldn't get published in a respective journal today. Hell, if you walked into a dissertation defense with an n of 17, your committee would probably laugh you out of the room.

The coin flipping analogy makes no sense because it's a number of discreet random events. The only randomness you're getting with controlled research is (hopefully) random error.
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Right on the coin flip. We'll call it Pepsi versus Coke instead.

Doesn't the IEEE have guidelines on sample size? (I don't have access)

Other DBT's i.e. the recent hands on Stradivarius test was 17 musicians.
 
#269
teemuk said:
We'll keep whacking it until its pulverized.... for decades and decades. I have a hunch that in a month time frame there'll be another thread about whacking it, joining the long list of threads of same topic, including a sticky about it. :D

Damn you horse!
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In my defense, I clearly said at the beginning that I wasn't after an extension of the debate. Simply wanted to discuss this test, to learn about testing procedures & to get opinions in open discussion.

I've read the stickies numerous times. I've also followed most of the threads over the years. I'm well versed in the arguments in the great debate. Although the subject matter of the paper I posted was that, the subject matter wasn't why I started the thread. Thank you, though, for your opinions. Well spoken opinions supported by fact are what good discussion is all about. That's why I brought my questions here.
 
#270
As far as differences between tube and solidstate when they are run "clean" and in the same circuit topology (class AB I presume). There are going to be differences in the crossover distortion that you get with tube amps and solidstate amps. Yes even in the linear operation area you will have distortion! It is subtle, but it is the difference between the sound of class A and the sound of AB.
Now if you have a transformer output class A amp that you do not run into it's non-linear area I would have a hard time identifying tube from solid state in that scenario.
 
#272
seamonkey said:
Right on the coin flip. We'll call it Pepsi versus Coke instead.

Doesn't the IEEE have guidelines on sample size? (I don't have access)

Other DBT's i.e. the recent hands on Stradivarius test was 17 musicians.
Click to expand...

I doubt that the IEEE has methodological guidelines for psychoacoustic research.

My guess is that the authors were reporting an interesting result in a relatively minor journal. They weren't trying to settle, nor could they even have anticipated, the present debate over the merits of bias controlled testing. In 1981, the functional difference between tube and solid state amps was an interesting and potentially solvable engineering question. Today, it's a culture war.
 
#273
I think 17 works.

Not too much in the way of outcomes:

Musician can always tell they're playing a tube amp.
to
Musician can never tell they're playing a tube amp.

Given text book examples, like
http://vanbelle.org/chapters/webchapter2.pdf

A sample size of 17 is plenty.

As we've seen with ad hoc listen only tests here,
Bassist can always tell they're listening to tube amp
Bassist can always tell they're listening to SS amp

Which right from the start of replies happen to be very close to 50/50 also.

Actually, in both cases above, the Bassist was probably listening through SS on their PC anyhow.
 
#274
brianrost said:
I once read of a test where the tester set up a tube amp and a solid state amp that the subjects could see. Actually the solid state amp was the only one connected and the switch provided to the subjects did nothing other than make a clicking noise in the audio.

All of the "audiophile" subjects preferred the tube amp :help:
Click to expand...

Go back to post #18 of this thread.
 
#275
It doesn't matter if you can tell what type of amp you are listening to. What is important is that you love your amp's deep harmonically rich tone. That it inspires you to play like you're on cloud nine. It is hard to top getting that adrenalin rush when it all comes together and you can't believe how great the music sounds. Find an amp that does this and stick with it.

By the way, this guy has a great set of ears. I hear that he is partial to the music of German composers.

 
#276
Big floppy bunny ears...can't argue with that now, can you?

So we've solved this dilemma for another week. I look forward to the next time. But always remember that in the end, nobody really gives a rat's ass. Thank you and enjoy the veal.

EDIT: You gotta be kidding me! Of course we give a rat's ass! Death to tubes!

er...
 
#277
beans-on-toast said:
It doesn't matter if you can tell what type of amp you are listening to. What is important is that you love your amp's deep harmonically rich tone. That it inspires you to play like you're on cloud nine. It is hard to top getting that adrenalin rush when it all comes together and you can't believe how great the music sounds. Find an amp that does this and stick with it.

By the way, this guy has a great set of ears. I hear that he is partial to the music of German composers.

Click to expand...

Harvey that's where you went! :D
 
#278
Years ago at a winter CES show, the guys from Phoenix Gold hid one of their SS car amps in a big, presumably tube-driven 'audiophile-type' chassis which was sitting between big speakers in one of the home-audio demo suites in the "high-end" hotel of the show. They periodically sat a group of attendees down in about one dozen chairs, closed the suite door, told them what they were about to hear, and then played a 5-minute performance. As everyone was talking and sometimes raving afterward, the MC pressed a remote button and the (motorized) front of the fake big tube amp chassis folded down and out slid a tray containing their SS car amp. Finding that the joke was on them, the crowd usually left quickly (I sat in on several demonstrations in a row). I think the whole thing back-fired; I don't believe Phoenix Gold ever did it again.

Yet people clearly hear, feel and appreciate differences between tube and SS, across many types of listeners/players, situations, and decades of time. And more than a few vote with their dollars. Present reality proves this general truth. If it were not so, wouldn't this industry (and others similar) long ago have converged to the lowest common denominator?
 
#279
MilbertCom said:
Years ago at a winter CES show, the guys from Phoenix Gold hid one of their SS car amps in a big, presumably tube-driven 'audiophile-type' chassis which was sitting between big speakers in one of the home-audio demo suites in the "high-end" hotel of the show. They periodically sat a group of attendees down in about one dozen chairs, closed the suite door, told them what they were about to hear, and then played a 5-minute performance. As everyone was talking and sometimes raving afterward, the MC pressed a remote button and the (motorized) front of the fake big tube amp chassis folded down and out slid a tray containing their SS car amp. Finding that the joke was on them, the crowd usually left quickly (I sat in on several demonstrations in a row). I think the whole thing back-fired; I don't believe Phoenix Gold ever did it again.

Yet people clearly hear, feel and appreciate differences between tube and SS, across many types of listeners/players, situations, and decades of time. And more than a few vote with their dollars. Present reality proves this general truth. If it were not so, wouldn't this industry (and others similar) long ago have converged to the lowest common denominator?
Click to expand...

Interesting, but you better look out for a giant rabbit coming for you in the night.
 
#280
Since this thread got dredged back up...

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One is a solid state DI. The other is a tube/transformer DI designed to sound identical to a tube amp being DI'd through the speaker out. Anyone who can't tell the differences in these two clips is deaf.
 

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