Good read on "The Great Debate"

[smcgov]

I've got some vintage stereos and a guy told me that tubes in a circuit are really just replacement for where a transistor would be in a solid state circuit. I listen with headphones every night to music and I can always tell the tubes, and the hotter they get the better they sound. Maybe when I first turn it on I can't tell, but after an hour or two they get cooking and it's jaw dropping. I'm hearing the harmonics that the solid state removes and they sound really sweet. I've had guys argue that it's pychoacoustic and I tell them come on over and I'll show you. I not only hear the difference, it's obvious to me just because of the harmonics. I notice how they had the one "trained" listener in the test. I've been listening closely to music since I was a little kid.

I can hear it mildly when I would compare a demeter to a GK as well.

 

[aborgman]

BTW... it doesn't MATTER if "your eyes are part of the equation"...... all that matters is if you like the thing you play through.... even if part of that is how it looks.... Who CARES if that is "technically" silly?

Me.

Nothing wrong with liking an amp because of aesthetics - but if that is why I like it, I'd like to know that.

Makes choosing my next amp a lot easier.

 

[aborgman]

my UA 6176 (tube), Focusrite ISA 430 MKII (solid state) and Avalon VT 737 SP (tube) all have a ruler flat frequency response, and they all sound great, but they also sound and respond completely different from each other.

Then we have drastically different ideas of what constitutes "ruler flat frequency response".

 

[aborgman]

I don't mean to denigrate the double blind test as worthless at all times. It's pretty good at exposing cons that some shady manufacturers might be trying to pull. It's also good at exposing how your senses can play tricks on you and make you think you're hearing things you're not. But for me, while the differences between a tube SVT and an Ampeg micro head like the PF500 may be minimal when you hear them on a recording, they're pretty obvious when you're plugged into them and you know what to listen for.

...and double blind tests would show that.

Remember - you can do double blind tests on actual amps, not just on recordings of them.

 

[johnk_10]

Then we have drastically different ideas of what constitutes "ruler flat frequency response".

maybe you do, but i don't. do you own or have any experience with any of the channel strips mentioned? here's the results with all of them set flat:

ISA 430 MKII= green
Avalon= Violet
UA 6176= Blue

 

[One Drop]

Hmm, at first I thought you might be referring to the signature sound of some amps - IE, the Ampeg SVT has a signature sound - but your not. I think your “baked in EQ” may be more of a problem with the cabinet than the amp. Anyway, thanks.

No, you were correct to assume that's what I meant. Not a problem either.

I do think what is commonly referred to as the 'signature' sound of an SVT is a result of the combination of the head and the sealed 810 cab. Bu that's neither here nor there.

 

[seamonkey]

One is that people can tell the source is vinyl even if reproduced digitally, and the other is that people may prefer tubes and vinyl for the artifacts and distortion they produce.

In the DBT mentioned here, it was just 1 test subject that heard this. Not everyone. There's a bell curve, and the ones that identify amps by "buzzing sound" was at one extreme of the bell curve. It was mentioned because this training listener could reliably identify the amp from the buzzing. Fix the amp and results would be different for this one test subject.

People like the snap, crackle, buzz because it's familiar. DJ using digital have plugins for vinyl crackle. I wager that every digital studio has plugins for tape artifacts. Only to bring in the "familar".

 

[aborgman]

maybe you do, but i don't. do you own or have any experience with any of the channel strips mentioned? here's the results with all of them set flat:

ISA 430 MKII= green
Avalon= Violet
UA 6176= Blue

That is great if the only frequency response you're interested in is steady state.

When I talk about frequency response - that includes impulse response and harmonic distortions.

...and not one of those looks anywhere close to "ruler flat" frequency response either. They all look to have at least a couple dB worth of deviation.

 

[johnk_10]

...and not one of those looks anywhere close to "ruler flat" frequency response either. They all look to have at least a couple dB worth of deviation.

there isn't a couple of DB of variation. they are flat within a .5db. i consider that very flat.
obviously you've never owned one.
.............and i said that their frequency response was ruler flat when swept with a pure sine wave from 20hz-20Khz. i didn't mention anything about harmonic distortion or input pulses, but you just accidently verified my opinion of them sounding different due to my statement that the frequency response is only one part of the overall picture.

 

[JimmyM]

...and double blind tests would show that.

Remember - you can do double blind tests on actual amps, not just on recordings of them.

I know...I just don't care.

 

[aborgman]

there isn't a couple of DB of variation. they are flat within a .5db. i consider that very flat.
obviously you've never owned one.

UA 6176: +4dB @ 20KHz, -1dB @ 500Hz, +1dB @ 10Hz.

...and .5dB ain't ruler flat.

For an audio amp - I'd say 20-20KHz with less than .1dB TOTAL variation max-min is about the minimum I'd call "ruler flat"

..........and i said that their frequency response was ruler flat when swept with a pure sine wave from 20hz-20Khz.

No, you didn't. You just said it had "ruler flat frequency response".

i didn't mention anything about harmonic distortion or input pulses, but you just accidently verified my opinion of them sounding different due to my statement that the frequency response is only one part of the overall picture.

...but you DID mention something about harmonic distortion or input pulses, you claimed it had ruler flat frequency response. Not "ruler flat frequency response to a pure sine sweep".

They sound different - due to different frequency response.

 

[johnk_10]

UA 6176: +4dB @ 20KHz, -1dB @ 500Hz, +1dB @ 10Hz.

...and .5dB ain't ruler flat.

it is in the pro recording world. + or - .25db is ruler flat. can you hear .25db one way or the other?

For an audio amp - I'd say 20-20KHz with less than .1dB TOTAL variation max-min is about the minimum I'd call "ruler flat"

yeah, that's what 'you'd call ruler flat' , and that just verifies that you have no experience with pro recording gear. feel free to show me one that has less than .1db variation. and btw, i completely i expected that type of answer from an 'engineer'.

 

[aborgman]

it is in the pro recording world. + or - .25db is ruler flat. can you hear .25db one way or the other?

Nope.

I'd bet the average listener can't hear a 2dB variation across the audio spectrum in terms of a pure swept sine FR test.

There is generally little need for audio amplifier to be flat, and thus most of them aren't. They're just "flat enough".

yeah, that's what 'you'd call ruler flat' , and that just verifies that you have no experience with pro recording gear.

No, I've got lots of experience with pro recording gear... that is exactly why you'll never hear me describe it as "ruler flat".

feel free to show me one that has less than .1db variation. and btw, i completely i expected that type of answer from an 'engineer'.

Eh... lots of amplifiers are .1dB flat within their audio passband. Preamps it's vanishingly uncommon in the audio world, but power amps are often exceedingly flat.

 

[johnk_10]

No, I've got lots of experience with pro recording gear................

you comments certainly don't indicate that.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

People like the snap, crackle, buzz because it's familiar.

+1. Oddiophiles who prefer vinyl to polycarbonate tend to do so because they had it ingrained into them that vinyl's poorer frequency response, signal to noise, wow, flutter, dynamic range and lack of coloration was the way recordings were supposed to sound. Better or worse isn't the question, familiarity is. And yes, that's why they cannot identify a record versus a CD recording of a record, unless they're told that's what they're hearing.
On a parallel note, the reason why many high-end hi-fi speaker manufacturers recommend a 400 hour break-in: it's not that it takes that long to break in the drivers. It takes that long to break in your brain and get used to the sound of the new speakers and no longer consider them different, and therefore possibly inferior to the old ones. Tests have been done where the tester's old speakers were replaced and they didn't like the new ones. After listening to the new speakers for 30 days the old ones were brought back in and at that point they preferred the new speakers.

 

[One Drop]

+1. Oddiophiles who prefer vinyl to polycarbonate tend to do so because they had it ingrained into them that vinyl's poorer frequency response, signal to noise, wow, flutter, dynamic range and lack of coloration was the way recordings were supposed to sound. Better or worse isn't the question, familiarity is. And yes, that's why they cannot identify a record versus a CD recording of a record, unless they're told that's what they're hearing.
On a parallel note, the reason why many high-end hi-fi speaker manufacturers recommend a 400 hour break-in: it's not that it takes that long to break in the drivers. It takes that long to break in your brain and get used to the sound of the new speakers and no longer consider them different, and therefore possibly inferior to the old ones. Tests have been done where the tester's old speakers were replaced and they didn't like the new ones. After listening to the new speakers for 30 days the old ones were brought back in and at that point they preferred the new speakers.

Somewhat embarrassingly for myself you are probably correct on all counts, with the caveat that much of the older music I listen to that I like on vinyl was recorded and mixed to sound good with all the limitations and quirks of said medium.

 

[Joe Louvar]

Some of us have heard our instruments through very flat rigs, and want that, some want masses of colouration and baked in EQ, and some varying amounts in between

What is baked in EQ?

Poppin' fresh tones straight from the oven!

More seriously, an emphasis on certain frequencies in the voicing of an amp, that you can't adjust out, or at least without making such radical adjustments that the amp no longer works well in different rooms and stages, or up and down the neck.

Hmm, at first I thought you might be referring to the signature sound of some amps - IE, the Ampeg SVT has a signature sound - but your not. I think your “baked in EQ” may be more of a problem with the cabinet than the amp. Anyway, thanks.

No, you were correct to assume that's what I meant. Not a problem either.

I do think what is commonly referred to as the 'signature' sound of an SVT is a result of the combination of the head and the sealed 810 cab. Bu that's neither here nor there.

In that case I think if someone is having problems setting the EQ on a GK800RB/410RBH or SVT-Classic/810E, or etc to work in different rooms and stages the problem is most likely a lack of user experience.

 

[One Drop]

What is baked in EQ?



Hmm, at first I thought you might be referring to the signature sound of some amps - IE, the Ampeg SVT has a signature sound - but your not. I think your “baked in EQ” may be more of a problem with the cabinet than the amp. Anyway, thanks.



In that case I think if someone is having problems setting the EQ on a GK800RB/410RBH or SVT-Classic/810E, or etc to work in different rooms and stages the problem is most likely a lack of user experience.

What are you talking about? I have no trouble setting EQ on any amp I've used. I love my SVT and my Bergantino and Bag End cab, they sound great everywhere I use them, as long as I use them in the right rooms and the right size stages.

I used to own an 800RB and loved it as well, great little amp.

I tend to choose amps that I like the sound of without too much EQing, and passive basses with the strings on that sound best for the band I'm playing with those amps I own and use.

 

[JimmyM]

Well whatever reasons you have for choosing what you use, it's all legit if it works for you. I'll still put all the knobs at noon when I try an amp for the first time. Rarely, though, does it work out to where the knobs end up at noon. It used to bother me, now I couldn't care less. I'll get a good sound out of anything I plug into...won't always be my favorite sound, but I can make it work.

 

[One Drop]

Well whatever reasons you have for choosing what you use, it's all legit if it works for you. I'll still put all the knobs at noon when I try an amp for the first time. Rarely, though, does it work out to where the knobs end up at noon. It used to bother me, now I couldn't care less. I'll get a good sound out of anything I plug into...won't always be my favorite sound, but I can make it work.

GB's micro amps seem to take radical EQing really well, I guess their preamps are designed that way.

I'm in no way addicted to noon settings, in fact my SVT bass knob tends to go from 11.00-noon most of the time to suit the room, the mid knob gets a lot of different settings depending on how aggressive or smooth I want my tone, and the treble knob tends to drift from noon to higher depending on how dead my strings are.