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Good read on "The Great Debate"

#41
kittyboy said:
My 2cents is that double-blind testing is golden when making such decisions. Why lug around an 80lb tube amp if *I'm* not even sure I like it better?
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And that is the point of DBT. The only way you can know that the only thing influencing your decision is your ears is to remove your eyes from the equation. Not that I would bother, my arthritis long ago overruled anything my ears might have to say on the matter.
 
#42
kittyboy said:
My 2cents is that double-blind testing is golden when making such decisions. Why lug around an 80lb tube amp if *I'm* not even sure I like it better?
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If "you" don't like it better, than don't bother.....

I have NO CLUE why anyone else's opinion ought to matter..... You gotta play what you LIKE.... if you don't like the instrument/amp/speaker, that isn't going to improve your attitude or your playing..... even if you can grit your teeth and stand it for a whole gig..

if you DO like what you play through, it sort of drops out of consideration and "your fingers go directly to the air".... which is nice even if you are as bad a player as me.

If you end up MISSING the amp, you will understand WHY you do like it.... it's the stuff you miss it doing for you.

If you don't miss the amp, then stash it for a while, and if it still doesn't come out of hiding, you can sell it and buy something else.

If I like it, or BG mag likes it, or even if Jimmy M likes it, that doesn't mean you will, should, or have to like it (or haul it, or play it). No matter HOW many double blind tests say it IS better.

BTW... it doesn't MATTER if "your eyes are part of the equation"...... all that matters is if you like the thing you play through.... even if part of that is how it looks.... Who CARES if that is "technically" silly?
 
#44
All good opinions & points! Thanks for helping out in the discussion everybody.

So, I clearly see pros & cons for and against double blind testing now. This is why I'm appreciative. I started the day with a curiosity. I convinced myself one way & then another. Now, I see both more clearly & have a better understanding.

I can see that DB tests have value as far as isolating the ears. That is a strong point. As subjective as individual sets of ears are, it is still a strong point. I've already stated that my golden rule still applies to me personally & that is that if it sounds good, it is good. So, I don't need to be terribly convinced to use my ears & my own opinions. It is always good to be reminded of that, though. My case towards that is pretty simple. Do any tests matter then? Obviously, we will all use our own opinions & ears & tastes to make our own decisions. But, if that were the only factor, then any testing & even this forum would be useless, right? If just going & playing were the only thing to do, everything else becomes a needless effort. So, I've answered my own question as to the value of testing & double blind tests in particular.

It's common to compare our new mini whopper heads to our tried & true tube tone monsters these days. If I were in a place where I have no access to the amps I want to consider, then I would use every ounce of info I could find. & yes, my ears would be the ultimate & final judge. However, before I went with the risk of buying & shipping, you can bet anything that some double blind test I ran across on the internet comparing blindly, some of the products I'm considering would weigh very heavily in my factoring.

I see where the real world "i like it & this is why" tests are crucial for R&D pros. Definitely not pushing against that wall. For end users that live in small towns that don't stock what they want to try, yes, I absolutely see the value in a test that can limit itself to just audio in comparison.

Again, thanks for all of the good discussion guys! I got a paper under my door this morning that intrigued me & I've been able to talk through my questions & get some opinions I never would have thought of! Good times! This is still one of the best blind tests I've seen documented for musical instrument amps.
 
#46
i have to agree completely with Jerrold. the paper (the one that's the topic of this thread) was written as if it was someone with absolutely no familiarity with either tube or solid state amps, and they were indeed 'looking in all the wrong places'. a frequency response test is only one part of the many characteristics of any audio comparison, so i didn't consider it a 'good read' by any means.

my UA 6176 (tube), Focusrite ISA 430 MKII (solid state) and Avalon VT 737 SP (tube) all have a ruler flat frequency response, and they all sound great, but they also sound and respond completely different from each other.
 
#47
johnk_10 said:
i have to agree completely with Jerrold. the paper (the one that's the topic of this thread) was written as if it was someone with absolutely no familiarity with either tube or solid state amps, and they were indeed 'looking in all the wrong places'. a frequency response test is only one part of the many characteristics of any audio comparison, so i didn't consider it a 'good read' by any means.

my UA 6176 (tube), Focusrite ISA 430 MKII (solid state) and Avalon VT 737 SP (tube) all have a ruler flat frequency response, and they all sound great, but they also sound and respond completely different from each other.
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Absolutely! No question about the test & paper only going so far. There are so many factors to consider & explore.

I called it a good read not based on that, but based on the detail it went into on the actual testing & recording of material presented. I'm definitely not trying to say that it is a definitive test at all. Simply that I haven't seen a gear test make such use of methods like this. In that way, it was a good read for me & I thought I'd share to get some better knowledge. You guys are the experts! I'm just trying to be like you!
 
#48
I don't mean to denigrate the double blind test as worthless at all times. It's pretty good at exposing cons that some shady manufacturers might be trying to pull. It's also good at exposing how your senses can play tricks on you and make you think you're hearing things you're not. But for me, while the differences between a tube SVT and an Ampeg micro head like the PF500 may be minimal when you hear them on a recording, they're pretty obvious when you're plugged into them and you know what to listen for. That's why Ampeg never discontinued their SVT's when they came out with the PF500 ;)
 
#49
Interesting back story Jerrold; thanks for that.
Perhaps I'm alone in this but, the SS amps do have wonderful tone these days but it doesn't appear (to me) that manufacturers have spent as much time emulation the touch sensitivity / compression of tube amps in SS designs.
I find this touch response equally important in the great debate.
 
#50
Jim C said:
Perhaps I'm alone in this but, the SS amps do have wonderful tone these days but it doesn't appear (to me) that manufacturers have spent as much time emulation the touch sensitivity / compression of tube amps in SS designs.
I find this touch response equally important in the great debate.
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Actually, I think that is one of the BIGGEST issues..... Everyone focused for years on how the SS amp emulated how "a" tube "sounds", by working on the detailed emulation of every little slope and curve of the tube waveform.......... which I strongly doubt is the most important single part....... I know that sounds weird, but hold on.....

We developed and patented an SS means to capture some of the touch sensitivity.... the way the harmonics change with both volume and time in a tube amp..... Most of that has less to do with the tube itself, and more to do with the circuit it is used in.... COMBINED with the tube performance itself...

It was interesting to watch people who were not expecting much from the first unit play it, and then get a kinda happy look on their face and keep playing it because it worked much more like they wanted it to than any of the prior units.

Once you have the way the amp "feels" down, then you can work with how the amp sounds as far as being like a tube amp in other aspects of its character.... after all there are SS amps, tube amps, better tube amps, and really good tube amps......

The patent has expired, and the principle could be implemented in hardware or software.....
 
#51
JimmyM said:
I don't mean to denigrate the double blind test as worthless at all times. It's pretty good at exposing cons that some shady manufacturers might be trying to pull. It's also good at exposing how your senses can play tricks on you and make you think you're hearing things you're not.
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+1. Thinking that you're hearing something that isn't there because visual factors among others pre-condition you to expect to hear a difference can lead to some very expensive errors in judgement. If not for this fact the high end cable industry would not exist, nor would the power conditioner industry, along with 99% of the silly doo-dads that oddiophiles waste their money on.
 
#52
#54
The paper is valid. The tests are valid. The set up valid.

There's videos on youtube around ESP Cables. They are sited subjective opinions on the cable You can actually watch the reviewer change his playing style when switching cables. He may not do it intentionally, but it's happening. If he didn't see the cables he wouldn't do this. Same thing happens for amps and violins. Real DBT are impartial.
 
#57
johnk_10 said:
and IMO, the limited amount a parameters tested determined nothing.
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Yeah, validity doesn't necessarily imply usefulness for our individual purposes.;)

I'm all for these kinds of tests, and I fully support the scientific method of the one in question. I also agree that they missed the point by focusing on frequency response. Good equalizing can do a whole lot for any amp, but the difference in compression and harmonic distortion are a different matter. Funnily, the differences that this paper fails to address are also the main reason I prefer solid state poweramps. But that is completely subjective.:)

Welcome back Jimmy!

Martin
 

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