Graphite bars or Quartersawn? Which is better?

[VigierUSA]

So there's a "skunk stripe" on the back, then?

Yes. Here's a couple pics of my five. You can see there's no joint on the board and you can see the carbon on the back. On my four (which is in my band's van), you can see the carbon on the body end of the neck. The neck joints are slightly different between the two models, so you can't see it on the five.

 

[bholder]

Yes. Here's a couple pics of my five. You can see there's no joint on the board and you can see the carbon on the back. On my four (which is in my band's van), you can see the carbon on the body end of the neck. The neck joints are slightly different between the two models, so you can't see it on the five.

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Thanks, I was wondering whether they covered it with wood or let it show. Looks cool to me.

 

[VigierUSA]

Thanks, I was wondering whether they covered it with wood or let it show. Looks cool to me.

I agree, most people who don't know don't even realize it's not a traditional skunk stripe until I point it out.

Here is a bisected guitar neck I forgot I had on hand (wasn't good enough to make it to an instrument). Gives you a better idea of how the carbon is inlaid.

 

[bholder]

I agree, most people who don't know don't even realize it's not a traditional skunk stripe until I point it out.

Here is a bisected guitar neck I forgot I had on hand (wasn't good enough to make it to an instrument). Gives you a better idea of how the carbon is inlaid.

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Wow, neat, thanks, that's a lot of carbon! Didn't realize it was so wide front-to-back.

 

[VigierUSA]

Wow, neat, thanks, that's a lot of carbon! Didn't realize it was so wide front-to-back.

Yeah, there is just the tiniest bit of flex in the neck. Otherwise, no movement to speak of. It's such a luxury - combined with the wood we use, it's just a different neck experience altogether. You don't realize what you're missing until you have an ultra rigid neck.

If anyone has any questions, feel free to pm or email me. I don't wanna clog up threads with too much stuff coming from me about Vigier - seems a little spammy

 

[bassbenj]

Yeah, there is just the tiniest bit of flex in the neck. Otherwise, no movement to speak of. It's such a luxury - combined with the wood we use, it's just a different neck experience altogether. You don't realize what you're missing until you have an ultra rigid neck.

If anyone has any questions, feel free to pm or email me. I don't wanna clog up threads with too much stuff coming from me about Vigier - seems a little spammy

Oh, I see, no truss rod just pure stiffness! That could work out great. I've never had any problem with my no-truss-rod Modulus. It's just always there for you rain or shine. The beauty of yours is that it doesn't have the plastic feel that some hate. Personally I love the carbon neck feel, but I can see how some would prefer the natural wood feel.

I was surprised at the depth of the carbon because I was thinking like others here of something more like the bars you can buy from Stew-Mac.

 

[VigierUSA]

Oh, I see, no truss rod just pure stiffness! That could work out great. I've never had any problem with my no-truss-rod Modulus. It's just always there for you rain or shine. The beauty of yours is that it doesn't have the plastic feel that some hate. Personally I love the carbon neck feel, but I can see how some would prefer the natural wood feel.

I was surprised at the depth of the carbon because I was thinking like others here of something more like the bars you can buy from Stew-Mac.

You hit the nail on the head - way back in the day all our instruments had all-carbon necks like what Modulus was doing. People didn't like the plasticy feel (which I personally don't mind), so we started doing this in 1989 - best of both worlds IMHO.

 

[zortation]

I've had every iteration of neck construction in my hands. The only one I felt was consistently good on different basses was a three-piece laminated maple neck, just maple, no purpleheart streamers or mahogany stripes. Either that or a choice flatsawn neck that was dead-on naturally straight.

 

[bholder]

Quarter sawn with rods?

Exactly, it's a this or that question where the two options aren't mutually exclusive. Does not compute.

 

[mpdd]

my condition 1 used mf sb-2 needs set up once about every three years, it's a quartersawn rw chunky jazz neck, it survived the joshua tree show that was 112 in the desert with no ill effects

 

[Turnaround]

I may have exaggerated a little. I counted them once years ago, but don't remember the number. Still it is a bit unusual looking. Not mine, but:

Martin Guitars, along with others, have produced guitars using a multi-laminate neck like this. I've serviced quite a few and have found the necks to be no more or less stable than single piece flat-sawn or quarter-sawn necks. The quality of the wood used is the key, laminated or otherwise.

 

[bholder]

Martin Guitars, along with others, have produced guitars using a multi-laminate neck like this. I've serviced quite a few and have found the necks to be no more or less stable than single piece flat-sawn or quarter-sawn necks. The quality of the wood used is the key, laminated or otherwise.

It would be interesting to see the methods (flatsawn, quartersawn, laminated) compared fairly (that is, scientifically) with similar quality woods and large enough sample size.

 

[VWbug]

You hit the nail on the head - way back in the day all our instruments had all-carbon necks like what Modulus was doing. People didn't like the plasticy feel (which I personally don't mind), so we started doing this in 1989 - best of both worlds IMHO.

Not to take away from the thread. Do you really guarantee no dead spots? I mean if that's true that's awesome! I had a Zon and it still had dead spots, they were just closer to the 12th fret and on the D string.

*Back on topic -

It's tough just being a regular player to figure all this stuff out when you have folks with woodworking experience and years of experience seemingly having completely opposite views. Then I see a general consensus in a thread to only find another in a "search" and the overwhelming views with THOSE seemingly knowledgable folks is opposite.
Is there any published evidence/facts that don't rely on experience and preference. I would imagine we are ALL susceptible to having strong feelings not necessarily backed up by fact. I KNOW my car runs better after I wash it.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

I am currently building a 4001 clone using 1/8" X 1/4" graphite stiffeners oriented vertically, that is with the 1/4" dimension perpendicular to the fingerboard. This is the intuitive orientation, with the long dimension of the bar resisting neck bow, but I've recently seen them laid in "flat", with the 1/4" dimension parallel to fingerboard on a few builds. The bars are much easier to bend in this direction, but the shallow depth needed to house them allows for a thinner neck. Any wisdom out there on how these bars are best used?

 

[bholder]

I am currently building a 4001 clone using 1/8" X 1/4" graphite stiffeners oriented vertically, that is with the 1/4" dimension perpendicular to the fingerboard. This is the intuitive orientation, with the long dimension of the bar resisting neck bow, but I've recently seen them laid in "flat", with the 1/4" dimension parallel to fingerboard on a few builds. The bars are much easier to bend in this direction, but the shallow depth needed to house them allows for a thinner neck. Any wisdom out there on how these bars are best used?

Interesting - I wonder what difference, if any, the orientation makes to the sound and feel. I would imagine the "flat in" version might make for a "livelier" feel, being springier. No idea, really. Maybe laying them in flat makes their stiffness more like the wood's, allowing them to bond better? No idea, really, hoping someone who knows chimes in. (I'm not up to building necks yet, that's a ways off still.)

 

[Turnaround]

It would be interesting to see the methods (flatsawn, quartersawn, laminated) compared fairly (that is, scientifically) with similar quality woods and large enough sample size.

It's been done, but I don't have my reference source at hand. In terms of flex, there's no difference between flat and quarter sawn. It's easy to understand. The wood comes from a tree. The tree will flex in the wind pretty well the same amount in all directions, assuming a constant diameter and the absence of reaction wood. So, no matter how you cut it, you will see the same amount of flex.

Lamination is different. Theoretically, and dependent on a number of factors, a laminated board of the same dimension will flex less than a solid one. But that will depend again on the quality of the wood, the type of glue used, the orientation of the grain, etc. etc. For example, it was studied to death in the aviation industry when lightweight wooden spars were used in constructing aircraft. Laminations were used extensively because of the added strength-to-weight ratio they afforded. However, a number of catastrophic failures lead to the discovery that mixing flat sawn with quarter sawn pieces in the lamination was the cause of many of these failures.

I suspect that the use of many-layered lamination in the guitar business (as shown in the photo in an earlier post) is a consequence of diminishing availability, and thus high cost, of suitable solid material. You essentially gain back the desired rigidity of a good piece of wood by laminating inferior wood. Of course the manufacturer is likely to put a different spin on it.

 

[VigierUSA]

Not to take away from the thread. Do you really guarantee no dead spots? I mean if that's true that's awesome! I had a Zon and it still had dead spots, they were just closer to the 12th fret and on the D string.

*Back on topic -

It's tough just being a regular player to figure all this stuff out when you have folks with woodworking experience and years of experience seemingly having completely opposite views. Then I see a general consensus in a thread to only find another in a "search" and the overwhelming views with THOSE seemingly knowledgable folks is opposite.
Is there any published evidence/facts that don't rely on experience and preference. I would imagine we are ALL susceptible to having strong feelings not necessarily backed up by fact. I KNOW my car runs better after I wash it.

Yeah, it's pretty insane, but we guarantee no dead spots and I've honestly never played a Vigier that had one. I can't speak to Zon's construction method, but ours has two aspects that really set it apart. First, the wood we buy is rough cut and left to air dry for three years. We're so backlogged (heh... logged) with new wood, that it's actually more like five right now. Second, we inlay the carbon AFTER that three year period and the necks (and bodies) sit for another entire year to let the glue set before we go forward. This now ultra dry, ultra stiff neck allows us to make and backup the claims we do.

The downside is that we aren't as able to change specs on the fly (or at all) without a lot of planning. To me as a player, I'll take the resulting stability and tone over damn near anything else. There's enough variance in the lineup that there's *basically* something for everyone, though I'll be the first to tell a customer that some specs/models are a love 'em or leave 'em affair.

I agree about trying to make heads or tails of woodworking methods. Honestly, neck construction is something that mystified me for many years - what's better, what's worse and why?! Vigier and our carbon brothers still make up a small minority of instruments in the world, so it's an ongoing concern for someone like me, too!