Sorry to exclude y’all. MO’s also sodded up quite well. By now, it’s clear here, in the high 80’s-90’s and I’ve opened the pool.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Green Wood: Time to Cut Bait!
- Thread starter Dr. Cheese
- Start date
Over the years (decades) I've never had a laminated neck twist and have only had one neck from a major producer twist and it happened to be maple with a rosewood board. As a part time builder and repairer, I can afford to store wood for years and have some maple, mahogany, blackwood, ash and myrtle that has been racked, in a stable covered environment, for close to thirty years.
Any operation that is involved in mass production may not have the facilities to store wood under controlled conditions for years, or production deadlines might mean that wood doesn't have time to "settle" after kiln drying, before being cut and shaped. Wood that's kiln dried (often to around 6-8% humidity in the USA, generaly higher in Europe and I don't know what the usual levels are in Asia) will re absorb some moisture if the environment it is moved to from the kiln has higher humidity, which is just about everywhere that guitars and basses are made.
Likewise (depending on the finish applied) wood moved to in home situations where humidity is higher, may well absorb a degree or two of extra moisture. (often these changes, which may be seasonal too, cause "fret sprout" and other issues, hence the need for truss rod adjustments and in some cases lead to twisting and warping)
As a general rule, we electric instrument players seem to view our instruments as pretty indestructible, at least compared to many acoustic players, double bass, cello and violin players, who often work to ensure humidity levels stay within ideal ranges and minimize drastic temperature shifts. While it's true that a solid body guitar or bass is a lot more robust than a finely crafted vintage violin, with a ancient and permeable varnish finish, it's still made from wood, just like the violin, and wood is subject to moisture and temperature fluctuations.
Any operation that is involved in mass production may not have the facilities to store wood under controlled conditions for years, or production deadlines might mean that wood doesn't have time to "settle" after kiln drying, before being cut and shaped. Wood that's kiln dried (often to around 6-8% humidity in the USA, generaly higher in Europe and I don't know what the usual levels are in Asia) will re absorb some moisture if the environment it is moved to from the kiln has higher humidity, which is just about everywhere that guitars and basses are made.
Likewise (depending on the finish applied) wood moved to in home situations where humidity is higher, may well absorb a degree or two of extra moisture. (often these changes, which may be seasonal too, cause "fret sprout" and other issues, hence the need for truss rod adjustments and in some cases lead to twisting and warping)
As a general rule, we electric instrument players seem to view our instruments as pretty indestructible, at least compared to many acoustic players, double bass, cello and violin players, who often work to ensure humidity levels stay within ideal ranges and minimize drastic temperature shifts. While it's true that a solid body guitar or bass is a lot more robust than a finely crafted vintage violin, with a ancient and permeable varnish finish, it's still made from wood, just like the violin, and wood is subject to moisture and temperature fluctuations.
Actually, I am on the East side of the river in Illinois, about ten miles east of downtown St. Louis. Southern Illinois is truly Southern in its geographic location.
For the sake of argument, let's assume I can buy a cheap new import bass for $150. I'm going to install better pickups and tuners, so let's say it costs $300 total.
Now let's assume the neck will be good for 3 years before I need to replace it. At that point I invest another $150 for a new neck... Which will also last 3 years.
So... Initial cost is $300 with another $150 every three years thereafter to keep the thing playable. Or if I get tired of the color I can sell the whole thing for parts ($150) and start over ($300) which amounts to the same thing.
So the total cost for 12 years is $750 ($300 + $150 + $150 + $150) and I can keep going indefinitely with essentially a new cheap bass every three years. When I'm ready to retire I sell the last bass for parts. Total cost is $50/year.
Now personally I'd rather spend $800 up front for a better quality used bass (say a 10-year-old US Fender) and trust that it will not need any major repairs for at least 16 years... But the cheap bass neck replacement plan doesn't sound completely stupid.
Now let's assume the neck will be good for 3 years before I need to replace it. At that point I invest another $150 for a new neck... Which will also last 3 years.
So... Initial cost is $300 with another $150 every three years thereafter to keep the thing playable. Or if I get tired of the color I can sell the whole thing for parts ($150) and start over ($300) which amounts to the same thing.
So the total cost for 12 years is $750 ($300 + $150 + $150 + $150) and I can keep going indefinitely with essentially a new cheap bass every three years. When I'm ready to retire I sell the last bass for parts. Total cost is $50/year.
Now personally I'd rather spend $800 up front for a better quality used bass (say a 10-year-old US Fender) and trust that it will not need any major repairs for at least 16 years... But the cheap bass neck replacement plan doesn't sound completely stupid.
I do think cranking out instruments in large numbers at low prices inevitably results in basses that were made from inadequately cured wood.
Last edited:
Turnaround
Commercial User
I had some dealings with a company that had shifted their manufacturing to a plant they built in southeast Asia. They started having a problem with shrinkage causing a rash of problems on their finished instruments.
First they thought that their drying kilns were not doing an adequate job, so they upgraded them. But the problem persisted. I was sent to London to help determine what was happening.
The problem was found to be in shipping. Shipments were done by the container-load. The worst cases were when the container was on top of the pile where it got direct sun. A recording thermometer was packed in the case with an instrument and that revealed that the temperature reached and held a temperature of 140 degF for an extended period. And there was no way that the manufacturer could control where his container would be placed onboard the ship. Though I was able to determine the cause of their problem I left it to them to find a solution.
First they thought that their drying kilns were not doing an adequate job, so they upgraded them. But the problem persisted. I was sent to London to help determine what was happening.
The problem was found to be in shipping. Shipments were done by the container-load. The worst cases were when the container was on top of the pile where it got direct sun. A recording thermometer was packed in the case with an instrument and that revealed that the temperature reached and held a temperature of 140 degF for an extended period. And there was no way that the manufacturer could control where his container would be placed onboard the ship. Though I was able to determine the cause of their problem I left it to them to find a solution.
What’s wrong with keeping the basses on the stands? Greater humidity changes? Seems like a in a case the instrument would be subject to the same thing. I put little humidifiers in my high-end ukulele cases when the furnace is running for weeks on end.
Also, Dr. Cheese, what’s the deal with the climate where you are and in the south (where I am)? Just the variability?
Cheese and I live close to each other. The humidity has been all over. Even basses in cases needed adjustment. I’ve had to do more setups this spring than any year prior
I always wonder if cheaper line instruments that are made in foreign countries like Indonesia and China and so on the quality of the wood, I have a LTD B-206SM that I love to death but a few years ago my band did the 70,000 Tons Tour with other bands on this big-ass cruise ship down near Jamaica for a week, I didn't want to bring my Zon 6 string because of fear of checking in below the plane and getting damaged so I brought my LTD instead and the humidity was so bad the neck on my LTD totally twisted and it has two truss rods in the neck and it still twisted so I had to send it back to ESP and they put a new neck on it, I haven't had any issues with the new neck but I haven't taken it anywhere with extreme high humidity either.
That being said, my cheapest bass the Paranormal Jazz that I modded hasn’t moved, shifted or gone wonky. The Player Series Jag is finally settling in too. It helps that they both have better tuners and bridges than stock. Maple necks as well
IME/IMO: it's the luck of the draw!
i've had high-end and custom-builts where the wood parts crapped out in some way(s) and i've invested in cheap axes/parts that have been stable for years (and vice versa, obviously, but not routinely).
of the several "my best fretless necks ever" = one is a fender-licensed allparts neck (30 years) and two are chinese cheapies (10 and 11 years). i have newer, cheap, chinese necks that have not yet withstood a lot of playing over time, so i can't really brag on those in the same way...yet (but they sure feel good now!
).
so far, i've been lucky and i don't want to jinx that by agreeing with the 'conventional wisdom', herd POV!
also, TBH: i'm old = i'm no longer in search of instruments that have to last for centuries --- a few cheap thrills are entirely workable for a cat like me!
i've had high-end and custom-builts where the wood parts crapped out in some way(s) and i've invested in cheap axes/parts that have been stable for years (and vice versa, obviously, but not routinely).
of the several "my best fretless necks ever" = one is a fender-licensed allparts neck (30 years) and two are chinese cheapies (10 and 11 years). i have newer, cheap, chinese necks that have not yet withstood a lot of playing over time, so i can't really brag on those in the same way...yet (but they sure feel good now!
). so far, i've been lucky and i don't want to jinx that by agreeing with the 'conventional wisdom', herd POV!
also, TBH: i'm old = i'm no longer in search of instruments that have to last for centuries --- a few cheap thrills are entirely workable for a cat like me!
What kind of climate control are you using? Green woods are more susceptible, but seasoned woods aren't immune to climate change.
How are you storing your basses @Dr. Cheese? And any issues with humidity/lack thereof in your space? I find it unusual that two different basses have had the same thing happen to them...
I’m also subbed so I can hear a scientifically robust explanation of how storing a bass on a stand or a wall hook could have anything to do with this.
Another aspect to it is the higher quality instruments dry the wood more slowly and carefully, cutting the neck in steps and allowing it to sit between to get its movement out of the way.
The case insulates it, fluctuations are not as rapid or severe. Imagine yourself sitting under an air conditioner vent naked. Now imagine yourself sitting under an air conditioner vent naked but you're closed up inside a foam-padded, hard-sided suitcase. Which one is warmer?
The irony of your situation is that the Zon has a graphite neck in order to avoid what happened to your LTD.
Green wood is is a problem but I think poorly chosen wood is too. I have seen instruments with some pretty crazy grain and lots of grain run out. Straight and boring is best for the neck but the other looks pretty and people buy it.
