The rig definitely has much more on tap, I have it pulled back quite a bit with the HPF. We do have a practice space that I leave my backup rig in, so I'm not lugging the whole setup as much but It might be worth bringing the whole setup to figure this out. The main reason I haven't don this is because the room is pretty boomy on its own, so I usually have to EQ quite differently in there.
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Guitar player thinks my tone is thin - is it?
- Thread starter Elmstreet
- Start date
The rig definitely has much more on tap, I have it pulled back quite a bit with the HPF. We do have a practice space that I leave my backup rig in, so I'm not lugging the whole setup as much but It might be worth bringing the whole setup to figure this out. The main reason I haven't don this is because the room is pretty boomy on its own, so I usually have to EQ quite differently in there.
I would wager that if the guitarist rolled off some low end from his own tone, you’d suddenly have more low end apparent in yours. Over the years I have noticed that this line of thinking never seems to cross the mind of guitarists.
I always tended to run my bass less boomy and try to send the soundman a broad frequency spectrum that he could use. If the guitarist doesn't like what's out front that's not really my concern. If he wants to tell the soundman how to do his job... well that's his mistake.
On stage it's less about what goes out front and more about my being able to clearly distinguish what I'm playing. I do avoid getting too much into the guitars frequency... much the same as those guitarists should stay out of the bassist's lane with some of the down tuned metal rifs
On stage it's less about what goes out front and more about my being able to clearly distinguish what I'm playing. I do avoid getting too much into the guitars frequency... much the same as those guitarists should stay out of the bassist's lane with some of the down tuned metal rifs
Okay, i just read the manual for that amp.
You’re pushing a LOT of super low end.
The Bass knob is shelving at ~80Hz, and the Deep switch is a +4dB shelf at ~50Hz.
The manual says that approximate flat frequency responce is Bass at 2, Mids at 9, and Treble at 1.
So you’re scooping a tiny bit of mids, but boosting the crap out of the lows, which are at frequencies that the human ear doesn’t hear very well to begin with.
Your poor HPF
So yeah, my advice is to set the EQ to “flat” (2-9-1) with the Deep switch off, and start from there.
Maybe play a whole gig with this EQ setting, see what happens.
Your bass tone certainly shouldn’t be “thin”, even with the HPF set around 60Hz.
You’re pushing a LOT of super low end.
The Bass knob is shelving at ~80Hz, and the Deep switch is a +4dB shelf at ~50Hz.
The manual says that approximate flat frequency responce is Bass at 2, Mids at 9, and Treble at 1.
So you’re scooping a tiny bit of mids, but boosting the crap out of the lows, which are at frequencies that the human ear doesn’t hear very well to begin with.
Your poor HPF
So yeah, my advice is to set the EQ to “flat” (2-9-1) with the Deep switch off, and start from there.
Maybe play a whole gig with this EQ setting, see what happens.
Your bass tone certainly shouldn’t be “thin”, even with the HPF set around 60Hz.
As a live and studio sound engineer, let me say this: the spatial perspective of the listener is vitally important. If your stage volume is overpowering the FOH system and your cabinet is beaming so you get areas of high bass and low bass in the venue because of it, that's a problem. If you're keeping your stage volume reasonable and letting the FOH do its work, it is their responsibility to keep you sounding good out there, bottom line.
As others have already pointed out, phone video of a performance rarely captures what it's actually like in a room but when I listened to the clips over my normal setup here in my studio (on monitors and with headphones), it sounded like your bass was sitting good in the mix for this style of music. If your bandmates want more low-end energy in the FOH, tell that to the mixing engineer. That is their job.
As others have already pointed out, phone video of a performance rarely captures what it's actually like in a room but when I listened to the clips over my normal setup here in my studio (on monitors and with headphones), it sounded like your bass was sitting good in the mix for this style of music. If your bandmates want more low-end energy in the FOH, tell that to the mixing engineer. That is their job.
I once was told by Guitar Player I sounded to 'Middy'
I let him use my long cable to go out front during sound check after I set my tone for room as always
He went out front for maybe a minute came back smiled and never said another word about it
The only thing you need to know is never take tone advice from a guitarist.
For Mesa amps it does not scoop the midrange like it does on Ampegs. Its purely a boost of lower frequencies.
This is very true, and is really the reason why I reached out to get some help. The way sound travels is complicated and way over my head, but I do know that where you stand makes a tremendous difference.
Yeah, as a guitarist, I can tell you that is exactly it.. If you want to look into it, do so but said guitarist should not be the person deciding.This was definitely my first instinctbut he's being nice enough about it so I'm willing to explore it I suppose.
If I read correctly, this is a "new member". They need to earn their opinions.. Why exactly are the so called "supporting instruments" subject to the whims of others?
Based on the videos, I assume the lead guitar player and the bass player are set up on opposite sides of the stage. If the guitar player does not have a monitor with bass going through it, he is relying on either the subs or lows traveling across the stage from the bass amp.
FYI, the SPL of direct sound drops off by 6dB for each doubling of distance. Let's say the bassist is 3' from the bass cab and the guitarist is 12' from the bass cab. The guitarist will hear the lows from the bass cab 12dB lower than the bassist. If you are curious, the math is 20Log(3/12) = ~ -12dB. Keep in mind, this relates to the direct sound. For an indoor space, I would expect the perceived difference to be significantly less due to reflected sound. However, there is the possibility the guitar player is standing in a null where the lows cancel.
No idea where the bass amp is placed, but perhaps moving it closer to the center could help. This might cause problems for the drummer or front man though.
Some people really need to lower their expectation as far as getting perfect sound on stage. If the guitar player can't hear the bass well enough, perhaps he should consider turning down. Whether or not this appropriate is situational, but IME it's not unusual for guitarist to be chronically too loud.
FYI, the SPL of direct sound drops off by 6dB for each doubling of distance. Let's say the bassist is 3' from the bass cab and the guitarist is 12' from the bass cab. The guitarist will hear the lows from the bass cab 12dB lower than the bassist. If you are curious, the math is 20Log(3/12) = ~ -12dB. Keep in mind, this relates to the direct sound. For an indoor space, I would expect the perceived difference to be significantly less due to reflected sound. However, there is the possibility the guitar player is standing in a null where the lows cancel.
No idea where the bass amp is placed, but perhaps moving it closer to the center could help. This might cause problems for the drummer or front man though.
Some people really need to lower their expectation as far as getting perfect sound on stage. If the guitar player can't hear the bass well enough, perhaps he should consider turning down. Whether or not this appropriate is situational, but IME it's not unusual for guitarist to be chronically too loud.
I could hear you perfectly fine in the Green Day cover.
Everything else, not so much.
Everything else, not so much.
clip 1 is all I listened, yes it’s bass shy but it’s because the mic can’t pick up the bass. It’s a live mix. It’s ok but it’s not an accurate representation of what the listener hears. Bass is really hit and miss trying to capture a live room performance and expect it to be radio quality. These types of recordings show your mistakes and performance but I wouldn’t judge tone or mix from a room mix like this. At least though you all weren’t obnoxiously loud.
I agree that the Green Day song sounds the best, but even then you can hear how the sound changes as the camera angle changes and walks across the stage, especially to the second guitar player's side.
I was just comparing your sound to some of the similar type of live footage I have of my band and in some cases, it is a little less bass and in others more. So, I don't think the sound is totally out of whack.
It may be that the guitarist's previous band had a bass player who used a very bassy sound and that's what he's gotten used to. As someone already mentioned, it may also be his position on stage that he gets less bass than you or those directly out front.
In general, I think you should always be a bit weary of pumping too much bass on-stage, especially if it's a wood stage and certainly if you have PA support and a dedicated sound person. But, play with some settings and see how it sounds. It can't hurt!
I was just comparing your sound to some of the similar type of live footage I have of my band and in some cases, it is a little less bass and in others more. So, I don't think the sound is totally out of whack.
It may be that the guitarist's previous band had a bass player who used a very bassy sound and that's what he's gotten used to. As someone already mentioned, it may also be his position on stage that he gets less bass than you or those directly out front.
In general, I think you should always be a bit weary of pumping too much bass on-stage, especially if it's a wood stage and certainly if you have PA support and a dedicated sound person. But, play with some settings and see how it sounds. It can't hurt!
What recording gear was being used? Was it a board mix? A phone? A shotgun mic?
I had this over the summer. A guy (call him Mike) associated with a band I subbed for video’d some gigs with their regular drummer and with me. He showed them to a friend (call him Joe), who commented that the front crash cymbal sounded terrible. And you know what? On those recordings it did not sound good! The regular drummer’s front crash, and my front crash. So Mike came back to me and said that Joe told him the cymbal needed to be changed.
But what are the odds that two good drummers would each have crappy front crash cymbals?
The higher odds are that the mic built into phone used to record all those things is not a perfect live band recording mic. Modern phones do lots of things very well, but are not perfect. So the prominent position of the front crash cymbal makes it load the mic of the phone. Which therefore distorts the sound.
Moral: don’t count on the recordings to perfectly document the sound, unless a) you know that good recording gear is being used, and b) you know the sound person is highly competent.
I had this over the summer. A guy (call him Mike) associated with a band I subbed for video’d some gigs with their regular drummer and with me. He showed them to a friend (call him Joe), who commented that the front crash cymbal sounded terrible. And you know what? On those recordings it did not sound good! The regular drummer’s front crash, and my front crash. So Mike came back to me and said that Joe told him the cymbal needed to be changed.
But what are the odds that two good drummers would each have crappy front crash cymbals?
The higher odds are that the mic built into phone used to record all those things is not a perfect live band recording mic. Modern phones do lots of things very well, but are not perfect. So the prominent position of the front crash cymbal makes it load the mic of the phone. Which therefore distorts the sound.
Moral: don’t count on the recordings to perfectly document the sound, unless a) you know that good recording gear is being used, and b) you know the sound person is highly competent.
I appreciate thst you posted this because I believe it is one of those questions that people are afraid to ask.
My takeaway from this is. Stage sound quality does not mean very much as long as you can hear each other and it is not objectionable in some other way (ex. Guitar way too loud).
Your rig is plenty enough to do the job and more. Set the eq flatish and let the Pbass do its thing.
The sound engineer out front is in charge of the sound in the room and they can tell you what else they may need from you.
Guitarist or other band members can discuss sound with the sound engineer if given permission by the band. They may do so in a polite manner with the realization that such action could have a deleterious effect on the resulting sound.
My takeaway from this is. Stage sound quality does not mean very much as long as you can hear each other and it is not objectionable in some other way (ex. Guitar way too loud).
Your rig is plenty enough to do the job and more. Set the eq flatish and let the Pbass do its thing.
The sound engineer out front is in charge of the sound in the room and they can tell you what else they may need from you.
Guitarist or other band members can discuss sound with the sound engineer if given permission by the band. They may do so in a polite manner with the realization that such action could have a deleterious effect on the resulting sound.
More bass? Idk, I find it hard to play more than 1 bass at a time.
I agree. It does sound thin, even on the green day cover.
IMO the Compressor is eating your tone, because it happened to me. Too much compression and the tone is like:
IMO the Compressor is eating your tone, because it happened to me. Too much compression and the tone is like:
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