Guitar Scale Acoustic Basses

[steve_rolfeca]

...Another possibility that was mentioned in this thread were bass IV strings which do appear to come in the tapewound variety at "30" Scale / 35.5" String Winding Length (Distance from Ball-end to Silk)" by Labella:

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I am concerned that 35.5" ball to silk represents an 11" difference past bridge and nut for the 24.5" scale length Sojourn 4k.

To my understanding, it is not advisable to wrap non-silk portions around the tuners?

...@Steve, the AVNB1E is a fine looking bass and curious to know how the set you ordered worked out.

My research did show the strings you listed to be longer than the listed 25" scale and want to know if you ended up with any silk available for the tuning pegs.

You also mentioned that rope core strings would not work well with the Sojourn 4K.

Does this mean I should rule out the GS Mini and Microbass flats?

Thanks again and will update here if and when I hear back from D'Addario!

Generally speaking, problems with using strings that are too short, only crop up on the larger gauges.

For instance, most B strings are 0.120 and up. Only the tapered portion of the string is intended to be wrapped around the tuner post.

If you try to use the same string on a short-scale bass, the core wire may be put under too much stress by the tight bend, and break.

IME, this is highly dependent on the construction of the individual string, as well as the size of the tuner posts, and how the post holes are radiused.

For the most part, I am generally pretty confident as long as the string gauge is 0.100 or below, and the tuner posts are no smaller than typical sealed import bass tuners (about 3/8” in diameter). In that situation, just be sure to put a right-angle bend on the string before cutting it. Other wise, the string my “unwind” a bit, ruining the tone and sustain.

Still, go slow, and buyer beware...

I haven’t received the D’Addario nickels for my Ibanez yet. I’m in Canada, and we had a mail strike leading up to the holidays.

I should receive them in a week or two, and will report back then.

I’m actually pessimistic about how the regular nickels will sound. The tension should be perfect, but I suspect that they will sound too clangy and bright, at least compared to the nylon cores.

Rope cores won’t hurt the Sojourn 4K. The tension will drop by about 10 to 12 lb per string, so you will lose some punch in the initial attack of the note. You may also have to slack your truss rod off a half turn or so...

Also, you’ll have to lighten up with your plucking/picking hand, or the rope cores will fret out on hard hits.

 

[rrgramps]

My previous Ibanez PNB14E preamp was DOA, and I returned it. Since then, I’ve been sent a notice that my refund might be appearing in my account very soon. I’m patiently awaiting.

At some point, I’ll once again order another short-scale acoustic bass, amongst the Ibby and possible Guild offerings. Which one?—it all depends on where Amazon puts my refund. If it’s in my credit card account, then I’m open to getting the Guild. All of these are so good, including my first—except for the defective preamp section. It would’ve been a keeper. Here it is in my studio area.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

@macmanlou...Also wanted to confirm that the Sojourn 4K would not require other permanent modifications to accommodate said strings as mentioned in this thread with the Microbass 25 (the intonation issues mentioned for their fretted models with alternate strings were a concern)

Intonation is pretty much a crapshoot when changing type of strings for an acoustic (ie; tapes vs rounds, nylon vs hex core nickel)...

The trouble is that you can't do much to correct for bad intonation without either fine-tuning string gauges, or relocating the bridge.

A visible example of this, is the service that Kala offers to users who want to switch from silicone strings to the Labella flats. Most of the money that Kala charges for the conversion goes to relocating the bridge, because the intonation requirements of the two string types are so different.

Happily, my Ibanez is pretty much spot-on up to about the 16th fret. With a twelve-fret neck, that's about as far as I really tend to go anyway. I wondered what would happen with intonation when I swapped out the stock strings for beefier La Bella CB40's.

Thankfully, the CB40's either have a cleverly-calculated core to winding ratio, or nylon core strings aren't very sensitive to string length, as the intonation didn't suffer at all.

I first started looking at Kalium strings, because I was so disappointed with the Taylors I tried. Intonation was audibly off at the 12th fret, and Kalium offers very fine gradations when it comes to gauges.

Kalium's chart looks like this:

Note the close spacing between Kalium's singles- just a couple of thou between each string, making it easy to build a custom set.

My thought was that as long as you're happy with conventional nickel rounds, this would also work in your favour when fine-tuning intonation. By swapping out a string for one a little lighter or heavier, you could fix an intonation problem. Once you figure out the gauges that work for your instrument, you should have perfectly repeatable intonation!

That all came crashing down, once I realized that the Taylor, Ibanez and Guild are all braced for super-low tension nylon core strings, basically a beefy version of classical guitar strings.

I will find out more when my trial set of D'Addario nickels arrive, but my gut feeling is that the bridge saddle will turn out to be too far off for the steel core strings. Intonation adjustment is directly related to how well a given string conforms to the theoretical ideal- highly flexible, and very low mass.

Given that conventional nickel rounds use a stiff piece of steel wire for the core, they need a lot more compensation than a classical guitar string...

This is an area where the Sojourn 4K has a distinct advantage- it already has conventional steel core strings, so the intonation shouldn't be thrown off by much, if you switch the stock D'Addario nickel rounds out for other conventional strings, like the Kaliums...

 

[Djadja]

just a word about Kalium strings in general...
I've read that some folk have had problems with the company but that has not been my experience. I've been using them exclusively on my fretless for about 5 years and have only positive things to say.

 

[MakoMan]

My previous Ibanez PNB14E preamp was DOA, and I returned it. Since then, I’ve been sent a notice that my refund might be appearing in my account very soon. I’m patiently awaiting.

At some point, I’ll once again order another short-scale acoustic bass, amongst the Ibby and possible Guild offerings. Which one?—it all depends on where Amazon puts my refund. If it’s in my credit card account, then I’m open to getting the Guild. All of these are so good, including my first—except for the defective preamp section. It would’ve been a keeper. Here it is in my studio area.

It's a real shame that you were not able to fully enjoy the bass due to the electronics issue. I absolutely love my PNB14E. It's an amazing little bass.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

It's a real shame that you were not able to fully enjoy the bass due to the electronics issue. I absolutely love my PNB14E. It's an amazing little bass.

I would have simply asked for a replacement.

I'm still interested in the Guild, but based on the lack of any YouTube videos to confirm that the plugged-in tone is as fat as the Ibby, and my inability to find one to check out locally, I would go with the safer bet and get another Ibanez.

 

[screefer]

It's a real shame that you were not able to fully enjoy the bass due to the electronics issue. I absolutely love my PNB14E. It's an amazing little bass.

I am also in Canada. May I ask where you got your PNB? L&M Nanaimo won't reply to my inquiry. They show the AVN but not the PNB.
Thanks

 

[steve_rolfeca]

I am also in Canada. May I ask where you got your PNB? L&M Nanaimo won't reply to my inquiry. They show the AVN but not the PNB.
Thanks

I believe he bought it Stateside. The PNB isn't available from Canadian dealers.

 

[tymbrewolf]

Going to take the thunderguts off my 23" micro bass this evening and then I'm going to try the bass vi slinky strings and then I'm gonna try the ml7200. May need l7200 for intonation but can use otherwise on mini strat 2nd project bass.

 

[tymbrewolf]

Sense these tuners are for the fat rubber strings I may get away with the larger wraps around the tuners for the strings if not too big of a bend at the saddle.

 

[MakoMan]

I am also in Canada. May I ask where you got your PNB? L&M Nanaimo won't reply to my inquiry. They show the AVN but not the PNB.
Thanks

Steve is correct. I tried my local Ibanez dealer, L&M and Ibanez Canada and basically got told that the only way I could get a PNB14E was to buy it in the U.S., so I did. I ordered it through Musician's Friend and had it shipped to myusaddress.com in Ogdensburg NY. I could have had them broker it and ship it across the border to me for a nominal fee, but I opted to drive over the border to pick it up. Canada Customs was kind enough to let me pass with no duties. I haven't stopped playing it since.

 

[SBassman]

It's a real shame that you were not able to fully enjoy the bass due to the electronics issue. I absolutely love my PNB14E. It's an amazing little bass.

Me, too. Much love for the PNB14E.

 

[tymbrewolf]

So far tonight put on slinky bass v1 e string. Too small soundedok at g to a. Next ghs ml7200 e of 102. A little stiff. Wish had gotten an l7200 set to as 96 might be better. First thought is hmmmm...

 

[tymbrewolf]

Left e overnight. Because saddle goldtone holes are as angled towards the strap button on end of guitar and don't use pins bu instead just have a washer ran over the string to help catch the ball, the break over angle is not severe

However the stiffness of the solid core coupled with the high action that rubber nor nylon core really mattered with, throws off intonation. Lowering the action would work, but then could not go back to pahahoes or thunders or silvers. Cutting and wrapping on large posts worked great

 

[steve_rolfeca]

Anybody want a custom set of D’Addario Nickel XL’s?

.090, 0.065, 0.050, 0.035.

Would probably sound a lot better on a half-size electric with magnetic pickups, or at least on something set up for more tension, like the Sojourn 4K.

The tension is very close to the stock EXPPB190GS nylon/bronze rounds that came on my AVN, yet they don’t roll around under your fingers like the nylon cores. Other than that, they are not a good match for these models (Guild, Ibanez, Taylor), unless the intonation on your bass is way flat at the 12th fret.

Here are the main issues with them:

• They intonate between a quarter and a half-tone sharp at the 12th fret.
• They sound hollow, as though the harmonics are out of tune with the fundamental.
• If I dig in a little harder, the note sounds sharp, and takes about half a second to return to pitch.
• A moderate bend raises the pitch a fourth.

As a result, they make me sound clumsy, as though I’m constantly pushing the thing out of pitch.

I think it’s just a matter of a.) the piezo pickup magnifying the upper harmonics, and b.) the low tension.

The vibrating characteristics of the steels are way different to the stock nylon strings, which makes sense. The nylon strings come it at 12 to 15 pounds tension per string at 23.5” to 25”, whereas the nickels are designed for 30 to 40 pounds on a regular 30” short-scale bass.

The nylons react to tension a lot differently. I can bend them half-way round the neck, and the note barely goes sharp. In order to get meaningful vibrato, I have to shake the string parallel to the fingerboard, like a violinist or a classical guitarist.

The nickels work the other way round. A little side-to-side motion goes a long way, yet they’re very insensitive to longitudinal movement.

Same thing with tuning. I thought the factory tuners were low-geared, but it’s just the strings. With the nylons, it takes three or four twists to get the note a hair sharper. You barely touch the tuner with the nickels, and it’s already way too sharp.

The other thing, is that the nylons have a nice “thump” when played fingerstyle. They make my AVN sound big and grown up.

The steels make it sound more like a detuned parlour guitar, which of course is what it really is...

 

[tymbrewolf]

That is my very same assessment with the ghs pressurewounds I've tried the last two days just with the .102 E.

 

[silvertone]

I lost my day job in the fall of '18 and this has me posting a lot less here at TB.
(I'm still out of work - but playing a lot of music. Unsure if I'll survive this downturn but I'm here to talk about bass....)

I bought a Guild Jumbo Junior last year and have LOVED having a small bodied guitar sized bass for my enjoyment on the sofa.... it's super fun to play and I generally play it acoustically for practice purposes. On occasion I plug it in to a SansAmp Paradriver > Phil Jones Double Four practice amp.

Without the ParaDriver it's not quite as pumping, tonally but still sounds good. I play Upright bass when I play bluegrass but this bass is fun for the occasional times my rock band plays plugged in acoustic gigs.

IMHO there are things both good and bad about this bass - the short scale length tales some getting used to and the stock strings (which I've replaced with D'Addario's but they also) lack the taut string tension of an electric bass. But still the tones are cool - burnished sounding and warm.

One big problem with this bass is - after just one gig, the electronics totally crapped out.
Luckily my local Luthier (Gary Brawer) is a certified Guild repair guy so Guild covered replacement of the Fishman piezo system....

Once repaired I've had no more issues.

Not sure I'd recommend the Jumbo Junior without reservation - but having owned it for 6 months now it's one I very often play for fun cause it' sits in my living room and is always ready for my bass explorations....

 

[steve_rolfeca]

My other big takeaway from experimenting with regular nickels on the Ibanez, is that the nylon strings really carve out a special space for these little guys.

This is not just a neat little couch toy- it’s a serious instrument that demands it’s own technique for best effect.

The way the strings respond to longitudinal movement is really interesting. It took a while to adapt, but muscle memory from playing a bit of classical guitar in high school helped.

If you shake your hand side to side instead of up and down, a beautiful, warm vibrato is available.

I find myself missing it when I play the Dingwall now.

Note to self: I wonder what the 190GS’s would sound like on a 28” scale?

 

[rrgramps]

I would have simply asked for a replacement.

Steve, I really wanted more time to research the other offerings, like the AVNB1E. Another reason is that I didn’t want to do return business with Amazon’s supplier by asking for a replacement.

Since I live rurally, my pick of music stores is very lean; I have nowhere closeby to try these basses. I’m also totally at ease with returning defective merchandise. As of yet, I’m still undecided on which bass, and which vender. Maybe, Sweetwater.

 

[deepyellow]

Rep at D'Addario got back to me with the following info:

All string lengths are wound & trimmed at 48”

Bass String Scale Lengths:
Short = Taper happens at the 32” mark.
Medium = Taper happens at the 34” mark.
Long = Taper happens at the 36 7/8” mark
Super Long = Taper happens at the 38” mark.

For the 24.5" scale Sojourn, there is indeed a 7"+ gap beyond bridge and nut before taper begins so have emailed Michael Kelly to see if the D'Addario short scale tapewounds I am looking at would work on the bass...