Guitar Scale Acoustic Basses

[OtherLisa]

Where these little guys excel, is at home on the couch, or plugged into a battery or AC-powered bass combo. When they are amplified, I find them better than most large ABG's- they have a warmer tone because of the special strings, and less feedback because of the smaller body.

Hey, speaking of...do you have any recommendations on tiny battery powered amps for said situations?

 

[steve_rolfeca]

Hey, speaking of...do you have any recommendations on tiny battery powered amps for said situations?

Yes:

Stay away from Tiny! I've tried the Blackstar (guitar version), Katana Mini, etc, even the Boss Micro Cube Bass RX. They all fart out something awful on the lower strings, and don't push enough low end anyway. The "bass channel" on the Yamaha THR might work a little better, but I doubt it.

Things improve as you go larger:

• It's expensive, but the little Phil Jones combo works. Good tone, but limited in terms of output before farting out.
• Traynor's Travelmate is the opposite of the Phil Jones. Harsh tone, not much in the way of extended low end, but they can play loud, especially the TVM50.
• Battery-powered PA speakers. They range from thin and crappy sounding (Yorkville EXM-Mobile), to better (EXM-Mobile-12) to OK (Bose S1), to 5-string friendly (Roland BA-330).

My personal favourite isn't a dedicated battery amp. In fact, it's a pile of crap that I just happen to have handy:

• Folding hand cart.
• Mid-sized APC UPS unit.
• Fender Rumble 100.
• A couple of Bungee cords.

Given the low volume levels you use at an acoustic jam, the battery in the UPS will last for hours. Also, it's easy to walk in and out of the park!

One caveat: Check that your gear will work with the UPS before you take it on a gig- some amps and pedals don't like the nearly square-wave AC that comes out of the inverter.

 

[fermata]

Guitarists don't give up on their instruments if they need some amplification from time to time. I don't know many serious guitarists who don't have at least one acoustic with a pickup in it.

IMO, the only difference is that we need the help more often than they do...

In most circumstances, even expensive unobtanium ABG's like the Earthwood, Klein, B50, etc, need a lift from some amplification. Not only do they get lost the minute you get a party crowd singing along or add some percussion, but they don't have the sort of depth in the low end that we are used to from a bowed acoustic upright or a conventional electric bass rig.

At minimum, you often need to do the same as most upright players outside of classical orchestras- bring a small amp like an Acoustic Image or an AER, and use it just to provide some reinforcement on the low end.

A lot of entry-level large ABG's (to me, that means at least a 17" lower bout, preferably no cutaway and 32" to 34" scale) are as quiet or quieter than the better parlour basses. Any accusation you can lay on a parlour bass in terms of lacking volume, applies equally well to the full-sized ones.

Where these little guys excel, is at home on the couch, or plugged into a battery or AC-powered bass combo. When they are amplified, I find them better than most large ABG's- they have a warmer tone because of the special strings, and less feedback because of the smaller body.

Are they truly acoustic, if you have to amplify them to keep up with a well-strummed acoustic guitar?

Not really, but the best of them still have an acoustic character that sits very well in that environment. When we play amplified, folk-inspired music, I don't have to push my little ABG on my bandmates- they ask for it.

Thanks--that's a thoughtful take on the parlo(u)r size! If they can work with another acoustic instrument in a quiet room, that's certainly respectable and worthy of consideration...I just need to find one to try; they're a bit scarce in my neck of the woods. I am very much drawn to the compact size, since full-size ABGs can be pretty unergonomic.

As for the tiny amp question, the Traynor SB106 seems like a cool option (or the SB110, for a more traditional but compact 10" combo).

 

[KohanMike]

Hey, speaking of...do you have any recommendations on tiny battery powered amps for said situations?

I disagree with the previous post, I use a Blackstar Fly3 Bass with the double box and a bass uke when six of my uke group goes room to room for kids in UCLA/Mattel Children's and it works very well for that situation. I'd use it for sitting around with a couple people on guitar for sure.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

...I just need to find one to try; they're a bit scarce in my neck of the woods. I am very much drawn to the compact size, since full-size ABGs can be pretty unergonomic.

As for the tiny amp question, the Traynor SB106 seems like a cool option (or the SB110, for a more traditional but compact 10" combo).

Interesting that you mention the Small Block 106.

I was checking out small combos on the weekend, and while I didn't particularly like it with regular electric basses, that small woofer brought out a lot of nice, woody midrange resonance from the Taylor and my AVNB1E. It sounded better than a Fishman Loudbox mini.

A bit spendy for the size and maximum output, though. It's a lot cheaper than an AER, but I was doing a comparison between it, the Ampeg BA108 & BA110, and the Orange Crush Bass 25. The price tag on the Traynor stuck WAY out in that company...

 

[OtherLisa]

Thanks @steve_rolfeca and @kohanmike for the feedback.

Right now I have an older Fender 15 watt practice amp that I've dragged around (it's surprisingly heavy for such a little thing but it is older). Doesn't sound particularly good. I also have a Fender Rumble 200 that I use for regular gigs (and I won't get into my ancient wonderful-sounding but too damn heavy rig). I want to get the Rumble 40 as a practice amp and also for acoustic gigs.

What I'm kinda interested in getting is something very portable that would fit in a suitcase -- I just ordered one of those Hofner Shortys (the price was so good I couldn't resist) and want to find something to pair with it, just for practice. But I wouldn't mind putting some little battery-powered thing on my list of future acquisitions, because I could see how it would come in handy for the Taylor and, you know, GAS.

EDIT: Thanks @fermata , too! I think you posted while I was writing this.

Making lists now.

 

[MakoMan]

I've played my Taylor Mini in a couple fully acoustic situations. A living room with a tasteful acoustic guitarist, it's loud enough unamplified. A larger space with more guitarists? Probably not. Not sure how you would do with two. I'd add that back when I first saw the Taylor Mini, the sales guy (who put it in my hands and is responsible for me spending that money, lol!) said that it was actually louder than the larger acoustic basses they carried. I can't speak to that from personal experience but that is what he said.

When they first came out I had the chance to play the Taylor Mini back to back with several 32" and 34" acoustic basses also in the store. The mini had as much or more volume than any of the full size basses... but not as much volume as my Guild B30

 

[MakoMan]

Interesting that you mention the Small Block 106.

I was checking out small combos on the weekend, and while I didn't particularly like it with regular electric basses, that small woofer brought out a lot of nice, woody midrange resonance from the Taylor and my AVNB1E. It sounded better than a Fishman Loudbox mini.

A bit spendy for the size and maximum output, though. It's a lot cheaper than an AER, but I was doing a comparison between it, the Ampeg BA108 & BA110, and the Orange Crush Bass 25. The price tag on the Traynor stuck WAY out in that company...

Boy you were not kidding about the price of the small Traynor! Had my interest there for a minute, but I think I'll stick with my Rumble 40

 

[SBassman]

You guys want a nice sounding affordable small bass amp? Check out the current Acoustic bass amps. Even the little 25 is a legit, very nice sounding bass amp.

 

[MakoMan]

You guys want a nice sounding affordable small bass amp? Check out the current Acoustic bass amps. Even the little 25 is a legit, very nice sounding bass amp.

Appreciate the info. I've always liked Acoustic bass amps... been a while since I've checked them out and had not seen the most recent models. The B50C looks interesting... the tilt back option reminds me a lot of the Traynor TB50 I used to own. The negative I see is that at 30 lbs it is literally almost twice the weight of my Rumble 40 and within a couple of pounds of my Rumble 200. That takes it out of the running for me right off the bat. Plus they are not available in Canada, which is where Steve and I both live .

 

[fermata]

I just need to find one to try; they're a bit scarce in my neck of the woods.

Well, some out-of-town errands put me in a town with a music store that had a PNB14E. Overall, it's a nicely made, interesting/cool instrument. The strings are really interesting; sort of spongy, but in a good way, and warm-sounding without the dreaded phosphor bronze screech. There was some sort of rattle with the G string, perhaps a nut issue or maybe one of the lower frets had a high spot--probably not hard to fix, but a bit annoying for the test drive.

The 25-ish-inch scale was comfy, but to me, it felt like there was a disconnect between the cozy/comfy scale length and the standard (i.e. wide) string spacing at the bridge. Granted, I prefer narrower string spacing, but I don't find wider (19 mm) spacing hard to adapt to on a bigger bass; it just seems strange that everything about this bass would be compact except the string spacing. 17 or maybe even 18 mm would make the instrument feel like a more cohesive whole. I'm sure one gets used to it quickly and all, but for the maybe 10 minutes I played it, it was distracting.

The acoustic tone was warm, full, and present with a respectable low E (I'm a bit baffled by the physics with this thing/these strings!). Alone in the store's acoustic room, it felt like reasonable volume, so I'd imagine it could balance one restrained/musical acoustic guitar. More...I have my doubts. And playing harder pushed more sound, but these aren't strings for heavy playing, and the tone lost its sweetness.

Overall, it's a dandy instrument. As an acoustic instrument, it's the ultimate couch bass and perhaps enough for a polite living room jam. Go electric (I didn't plug it in), and the world's your oyster. I'm not surprised many people find it appealing. But in the end, it didn't call to me.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

Checked out another Ibanez PCBE12MH on the weekend.

Compared to the AVNB1E, the PCBE didn't feel or sound as alive in my hands. Speaking of which, it also felt cheap and desperately in need of a setup- unfinished soundhole edges, sharp-edged dry fingerboard, flimsy plastic saddle, a ton of fret sprout and sloppy tuners.

The Grand Concert body is a comfortable size, and the 32" scale wasn't an issue when seated. However, the extra reach did feel a little awkward on a strap. I would have to attach the strap at the headstock instead of the neck heel, and that is not my favourite arrangement.

Acoustically, it had a pleasant woody tone, and the volume was even across all four strings.

Plugged in, it sounded quite nice as well. However, I couldn't dial up the huge, warm low end that's always on call with the AVN. Even when I ran it through my FDeck HPF, the middle strings got boomy and out of control long before I could dial in the bottom end I wanted.

I'm guessing that the Fishman-branded piezo on the AVN is what makes the difference. It's also possible that someone who only uses their ABG for acoustic sets would have no use for the AVN's big cushion anyway.

Regardless, having easy access to the 14th fret was nice, and I would have considered it a pretty viable instrument if not for the intonation: It was waaaay sharp on all 4 strings at the 12th fret- worse than some of the early production Taylors that I sampled last year.

The saddle would have needed to be nearly on top of the bridge pins to get it right. I wouldn't tackle that fixing that myself, but my luthier buddy could certainly relocate the bridge or make a new one. The trouble is that, after upgrades (bridge, nut, saddle, piezo, tuners) it be would getting close to AVN/Taylor/Guild money, and I would still need to spend time feeding the fingerboard and fixing the frets.

Not a total waste, though. Having tried a small-bodied ABG with a 14th fret body joint, I'm more curious about the Guild Jumbo Junior than ever. God must be smiling on me, as I just found out that Club Bass in Toronto has taken them on, and his price is only $25 more than the AVNB1E.

I don't worry a lot about appearance, but I have to admit that trim level on the Jumbo Junior is a real treat for the eyes.

Guild is also a nostalgic brand for me. My dad was a huge Guild fan, and back in the late 1950's he sold so many that the British distributor gave him an A500 archtop on permanent loan. On top of that, the only guitar I've ever regretted selling was a rosewood F50 Navarre that I picked up cheap in the late '70's. It was an amazing instrument- I've never seen a Gibson J-200 that could match it.

My 65th birthday is coming up in a few weeks, so if the Guild sounds good enough plugged in, I think I might sell my Ibanez and grab one!

 

[OtherLisa]

Hey @steve_rolfeca I always enjoy your gear evaluations so I'll ask: Just to put on my aspirational list, do you have any thoughts on full size ABG's that aren't going to break the bank? I would have to go back and look but someone here posted about their wonderful instrument and I looked it up and it was waaayyyyy out of my price league. But I am guessing there are some nice options out there that would be fun to try.

 

[Don M]

Checked out another Ibanez PCBE12MH on the weekend.

Compared to the AVNB1E, the PCBE didn't feel or sound as alive in my hands. Speaking of which, it also felt cheap and desperately in need of a setup- unfinished soundhole edges, sharp-edged dry fingerboard, flimsy plastic saddle, a ton of fret sprout and sloppy tuners.

The Grand Concert body is a comfortable size, and the 32" scale wasn't an issue when seated. However, the extra reach did feel a little awkward on a strap. I would have to attach the strap at the headstock instead of the neck heel, and that is not my favourite arrangement.

Acoustically, it had a pleasant woody tone, and the volume was even across all four strings.

Plugged in, it sounded quite nice as well. However, I couldn't dial up the huge, warm low end that's always on call with the AVN. Even when I ran it through my FDeck HPF, the middle strings got boomy and out of control long before I could dial in the bottom end I wanted.

I'm guessing that the Fishman-branded piezo on the AVN is what makes the difference. It's also possible that someone who only uses their ABG for acoustic sets would have no use for the AVN's big cushion anyway.

Regardless, having easy access to the 14th fret was nice, and I would have considered it a pretty viable instrument if not for the intonation: It was waaaay sharp on all 4 strings at the 12th fret- worse than some of the early production Taylors that I sampled last year.

The saddle would have needed to be nearly on top of the bridge pins to get it right. I wouldn't tackle that fixing that myself, but my luthier buddy could certainly relocate the bridge or make a new one. The trouble is that, after upgrades (bridge, nut, saddle, piezo, tuners) it be would getting close to AVN/Taylor/Guild money, and I would still need to spend time feeding the fingerboard and fixing the frets.

Not a total waste, though. Having tried a small-bodied ABG with a 14th fret body joint, I'm more curious about the Guild Jumbo Junior than ever. God must be smiling on me, as I just found out that Club Bass in Toronto has taken them on, and his price is only $25 more than the AVNB1E.

I don't worry a lot about appearance, but I have to admit that trim level on the Jumbo Junior is a real treat for the eyes.

Guild is also a nostalgic brand for me. My dad was a huge Guild fan, and back in the late 1950's he sold so many that the British distributor gave him an A500 archtop on permanent loan. On top of that, the only guitar I've ever regretted selling was a rosewood F50 Navarre that I picked up cheap in the late '70's. It was an amazing instrument- I've never seen a Gibson J-200 that could match it.

My 65th birthday is coming up in a few weeks, so if the Guild sounds good enough plugged in, I think I might sell my Ibanez and grab one!

Out of all of the guitar scale basses I've tried, I like the Guild Jumbo Junior the best. To me, it sounded most like a "P" bass to me. 2nd up would probably be the Gold Tone 25" with the rounds onit.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

You guys want a nice sounding affordable small bass amp? Check out the current Acoustic bass amps. Even the little 25 is a legit, very nice sounding bass amp.

I've found that heavily voiced cabs and amps don't work very well with ABG's. Too much boom and feedback, hard to fix with corrective EQ.

My main rig is amazing with the Ibanez- an AudioKinesis FRFR bass cab and a G-K MB Fusion head. However, I'm still dialling in my practice setup. I modded the cab on a Fender Rumble 100 v3.0, making it work a lot better with my electric basses. Unfortunately it's pretty mediocre with the AVN.

There are lots of nice small PA speakers in my size and weight range, but the bass-friendly ones are pretty large.

In terms of bass combos and acoustic amps, I've tried a bunch over the last few weeks- Ampeg, Fender, Fishman, Orange, Traynor, Vox. On Sunday, I added a used Ampeg B1 to the list, and still hadn't found the sweet spot.

However, on Sunday I was pleasantly surprised by a little Boss combo in the acoustic room- the Acoustic Singer Live.

It's only 60 watts, with a 6.5" woofer. It's perfectly voice to bring out the acoustic qualities of a small ABG- a little light on the low end with the tone controls at noon, but it fattened up nicely with a little extra bass.

Even with the bass boost applied, it still went loud enough to drive all the guitars in the room nuts. At that level, it didn't fart out or make the Ibanez feed back. It has a feedback filter built in, but I never needed it.

There's a bigger one with 120 watts and an 8" woofer if you need more punch, but even this little guy is a bit spendy ($500 US at Sweetwater). Still, you get a nice feature set for home practice, acoustic jams and small gigs:

• Built-in looper.
• XLR/1/4" vocal channel with Phantom power, 3 band EQ, delay, and a harmonizer.
• Instrument channel has a 3-stage body resonance effect, 3-band EQ, and two different chorus effects.
• Both channels get independent input pads and XLR outputs, as well as controls for gain, a feedback filter and reverb.
• USB interface
• 3-step tweeter attenuation
• Headphone out.
• Aux in with level control for background tracks.
• Footswitch jacks for looper/chorus, harmony/mute.
• Separate jack for the GA-FC stomp board, if you want to control everything:
  
  MIC CHANNEL: DELAY/ECHO and REVERB - ON/OFF, HARMONY - ON/OFF
  GUITAR CHANNEL: CHORUS and REVERB - ON/OFF, MUTE - ON/OFF​

 

[tymbrewolf]

Little frontman works ok for me. Cheap and easy. Next is my peavy max 112 for little spaces

 

[hushnel]

I Purchased the Phil Jones Double Four. For all it’s power, it’s volume is no where near what my Rumble 40 can produce. However it is perfect for my needs. It is extremely efficient at it’s rated power. I’m using a recommended battery, the Power Aid Pilot Pro II, I can do 4 hours easily, probably much more. All I want from this rig is to match the acoustic volumes of a Dreadnought maybe a banjo and it does that exceedingly well. If I’m doing a Song Farmers type acoustic free for all, I just put the back radiator close to a wall or corner and I can fill the room. I’m using a wireless instrument transmitter so the amp is not wired to the instrument, keeping with the illusion of an acoustic instrument. This is why I purchased the rig. When this amp is near me, say, under the chair the other musicians are surprised how well the little Ibanez PNB14E sounds and projects, unaware that I’m amp’ed at all.

The band does acoustical rehearsals once a week. a couple times the others were unaware I was using the PJ until I packed it up at the end of the evening.

The end game for this rig, the reason I was willing so spend so much, is the pre 1840 Rendezvous I’ve been attending since 1988. I purchased the Guild B-50 many years ago so I could play bass around the evenings camp fire. It didn’t cut it, so I was stuck playing one of my Martin 6 strings. Yeah its OK to play a guitar, I’m even pretty good at it but my soul wants to play bass. With this rig I can take my small wagon, I use as a bench and to transport my guitar, water and an old folding chair. At the next rendezvous I will have my canoe basket with me, it’s a small split ash back pack basket, the amp fits in the bottom of this basket, which will sit next to me on the wagon. At low but higher than just acoustic volume nobody will be aware that I’m powered. Even if they do it wont be screwing with the ambiance of the Fur Trade campfire setting.

Last January’s Rendezvous I was playing the guitar with a few guys and Shaun Hall of “Father and Son’s” strode by and was pulled in by what we were playing, he had his fiddle player with him, actually a working concert violinist, and would not let me retire back to my camp. Dragged me around until nearly 4am before I snuck off. If these pros enjoy my six string work they will really appreciate my four string skills “o)

 

[steve_rolfeca]

Aaaargh!

I was already railing against instrument sales migrating to the Sweetwater/Musicians Friend/Amazon model 20-odd years ago, and this is where it's landed us:

• Lots of Guild dealers in Canada.
• Dealers that stock the Jumbo Junior Bass? Not so much.
• Dealers that will order one for me on approval? Fuggedaboutit...

Most are willing to order one in, but only as a final sale. They can't afford to get stuck with it if I'm not impressed.

It was starting to look like I would have to drive to Michigan, so I could check one out at Elderly Instruments. That's a 370 mile round trip!

Thankfully a dealer in Kitchener, Ontario remembers the last customer who bought one. He thinks there's a pretty good chance that he can borrow it for a day, so I can check it out.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

Hey @steve_rolfeca I always enjoy your gear evaluations so I'll ask: Just to put on my aspirational list, do you have any thoughts on full size ABG's that aren't going to break the bank?

Yes and no...

I haven't played all the conventional-sized ABG's, so I'm not an authority.

But I would buy used- I wouldn't touch a new one.

Of the models I've tried, the only affordable new basses that I would consider would be the full-size Guilds, or a Breedlove. Not the Jumbo, but the Pursuit Concert CE.

The cheaper large Deans, Corts, Ibanez, Fender, etc., are painfully quiet. I played a low-end Washburn today. It was priced about half-way between the Ibanez PNB and the Guild Jumbo Junior, but it didn't get any louder than the Guild until I started to really reef on the strings. At that point, it certainly cut through a little better, but the tone was horrible- nasal and clanky. I've found the same thing with all the cheaper large ABG's. The top is too over-braced to give you much volume, and the body is too small to give you a decent low end.

The expensive ones I've tried were better (Tacoma Thunderchief, Warwick Alien) but they were way up in what I consider to be the unaffordable end of the spectrum. More importantly, they still weren't loud enough to keep up with a small acoustic ensemble without amplification. And if you're going to carry an amp, why bother with a big, clunky over-sized ABG? They feed back worse than the little ones, so you may as well stick with what you've already got...

If was determined to buy a full-size ABG despite their shortcomings, what would I look for in the used market? Something under $250. In that range, you should be able to find a clean 1990's Korean Epiphone El Capitan. If the top is still flat, then it's not going anywhere at this point, and the quality was much better than a jumbo-bodied Chinese Michael Kelly.

 

[OtherLisa]

@steve_rolfeca thanks so much for this! The only reason I am thinking a big one would be fun would be to get regular bass strings on it as opposed to the nylon core things on the Taylor (which I love playing). I saw a full-sized one in an Irish band and it just looked cool, too, on the stage. Easier to kind of get dramatic with. I sing lead at least half of the time I'm playing, and I have to cop to finally understanding that a little drama gets people more engaged.

But as far as that goes, I'll be visiting a friend in Mexico over Thanksgiving -- maybe I should just check out a guitarron...