Guitar & Vocals in PA . . .

Discussion in 'Live Sound [BG]' started by Steve23, Jan 1, 2017.

  1. Steve23


    Mar 5, 2015
    . . . guitarist (one of two) will not bring/play through an amp.
    At clubs with good PA's, the sound guys do OK - it's at rehearsals (mainly) & at venues, either situation involving "single speakers on poles", that we have the dreaded "vocalist can't hear himself" & amazingly muddy sonic wash in general, aggravation . . .
    Is this a "guitarist, heal thyself" scenario, or is there some mini-mix board intervention that will "keep these two apart" . . .
    Can't give specifics on mixers, because we don't see specific units often enough . . .

    P.S. we already have a new drummer . . .
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
  2. DWBass

    DWBass The Funkfather

    How is this guitarist expected to hear himself? Furthermore......if you didn't have a PA, how would he even be in the band?
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
  3. lfmn16

    lfmn16 Supporting Member

    Sep 21, 2011
    charles town, wv
    What's the question? Tell him to get an amp or get a new guitarist. Problem solved.
    lz4005 and DavC like this.
  4. TomB

    TomB Supporting Member

    Aug 24, 2007
    The right pre-amp with good EQ could help going into the system. At least with acoustic guitar, this is pretty common using a Baggs or Fishman etc.
    derrico1 likes this.
  5. derrico1

    derrico1 Supporting Member

    Apr 12, 2005
    Charlottesville, VA
    Assuming his ampless rig is capable of sounding good, then running it through a high-pass filter's crucial to remove the muddy wash over the low end of the mix. (If the treble on his distortion sounds like an ice-pick, he'd benefit from a low-pass filter, too.)

    For rehearsals, put the singer(s) and the guitarist in separate monitor mixes, and the guitarist's monitor placed so that he hears himself w/o his monitor swamping the whole rehearsal room.

    If he *also* has the problem of psychologically hearing himself louder than everything else in the mix, then he's a good candidate for IEMs or headphone rehearsals.
  6. derrico1

    derrico1 Supporting Member

    Apr 12, 2005
    Charlottesville, VA
    Increasingly common w/ electric guitar, from Fractal Audio and Axe rigs, to laptop or iOS rigs running Amplitube, Bias FX, etc. Feeding the PA from a decent sounding ampless rig can sound good in the right hands and under the right circumstances.
  7. s0c9

    s0c9 Supporting Member

    Jan 9, 2014
    1964 Audio artist, Fractal Audio Beta Tester
    My guitar player just ordered an AX8 to use instead of his pedalboard and tube amp rig... he's IEM
    derrico1 likes this.
  8. Steve23


    Mar 5, 2015
    Thanks, gang . . .
    The hi-pass idea seems like a good first option; the pre-amp & EQ seems logical, too . . .
    He has a Line 6 mega-box that he gets everything from stomp-gain to down-tuning (also, some sound patch per song options that he builds himself), then a cable to whatever mixology station is available . . .
    Having brought up the obvious (to me) problem of vocals & guitar fighting through the "speaker-on-a-stick" bottleneck and getting no support (esp. from singer), I'm mainly trying to educate myself apparently . . .
    Backing vocals through the same pipeline, isn't any easier to discern . . .
    IEM's were an option (long story - prev. bandleader & his sound co. couldn't even dial us in @ HIS rehearsal space) . . .
  9. DirtDog


    Jun 7, 2002
    The Deep North
    Sounds like a godawful headache for the soundman to deal with for someone who doesn't want to carry an amp or cab to a gig.

    Even if you do exquisite HPF/LPF and EQ on the guitarist's signal, I wonder if it throws off your mix when he changes patches - not just kicking in an effect or two, but changing the whole virtual rig - software amp, speaker, mic sim etc?
    Steve23 likes this.
  10. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Commercial User

    Feb 20, 2009
    he needs a powered monitor of some sort that he can just plug his own stuff into, that way he hears himself without wrecking what everybody else hears.

    it'll also come in handy at gigs where there's only one monitor mix, he'll always have his very own monitor.
  11. seanm

    seanm I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize! Supporting Member

    Feb 19, 2004
    Ottawa, Canada
    Maybe turn the guitar down in the monitors? He has made his choice, he has to live with it. I always try to be accommodating, but you have to meet me half way. I have successfully run guitar in the monitors, but it was lower volume.
  12. DavC


    May 17, 2005
    Tallmadge , Ohio
    he needs a Flat Response monitor for his modeling rig .. ! like - Atomic CLR monitors ...

    and the soundman still needs to limit gtr freqs to what a real gtr speaker/mic would produce ..
  13. wmhill


    Aug 20, 2012
    upstate NY
    MTD basses endorsed artist Bartolini pickups emerging artist TECAMP bass players gear endorsed
    Are you sure he's not a keyboardist that's just playing guitar? They are notorious for assuming that the sound system is there to take care of them, and never have an amp. I've seen a few that had their own amp, but they are the exception. If you are a musician, you should have your own gear. Show up without a bass amp and see what happens.....
    DirtDog likes this.
  14. For rehearsal I would simply pan the two of them apart. For live work, your guitar needs a powered speaker. He could go cheap with a 6" Fostex 6301N pointed at his ear or a pwrd wedge like most modeling amp users have.
  15. derrico1

    derrico1 Supporting Member

    Apr 12, 2005
    Charlottesville, VA
    No different than guitar through an amp: the player needs to have combed through his settings so that his patch changes fit in the band's overall mix and particular arrangements.
    s0c9 likes this.
  16. s0c9

    s0c9 Supporting Member

    Jan 9, 2014
    1964 Audio artist, Fractal Audio Beta Tester
    Wouldn't it be "nice" if they actually did that?? LOL :)
  17. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Commercial User

    Feb 20, 2009
    true, but i'd say more importantly the guitar player just needs to not be in everybody else's monitor mixes.
  18. DWBass

    DWBass The Funkfather

    This^^^^^! Did a gig once and specifically asked the FOH to NOT put the guitar in my monitor. Not only was it in there it was extremely loud! I pulled the plug.
    walterw likes this.
  19. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Commercial User

    Feb 20, 2009

    yeah, i'll take no monitor at all over the wrong mix or someone else's mix, even if i'm singing backups. i've kicked away and even unplugged my share of wedges too :mad:

    (no unplugging unless i was sure no other wedges were jumped off of it of course :eek:)
  20. derrico1

    derrico1 Supporting Member

    Apr 12, 2005
    Charlottesville, VA
    I'm right there with you, Walter (post #5):

    I was assuming the SE at gigs would handle the monitor mixes (although, like DWBass, I've had gigs where the SE seemed confused about which aux was driving each stage wedge).
    s0c9 and walterw like this.
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