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Double Bass Gut Strings: Are They Worth It To Try? (part I)

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#103
The only gig I have is only about 20 blocks away from where I live, so I end
up walking to it, it's a pain in the ass to bring an amp with me (especially
walking back at 3 in the morning when I'm absolutely beat). So I've been
using a Shure beta57 rigged in between the bridge feet and hooked up to the
house PA. It works great. For rehearsals, I go mostly acoustic (except for
big band which I plug in). The amp sound isn't amazing so I try to stay away
from it. I haven't had a chance to try it with the GKMB150 yet. The amp in
the rehearsal room is a Hartke Kickback (not the greatest).
 
#104
I put the Gamut D and G back on the back up bass (replacing the Weichs that were previously on). I left the Weich A and Mittel E on. It sounds <censored>'n incredible. As someone suggested, I strung the D and G with the knots on the outside of the tailpiece and the increase in tension on the G and D makes playing the gut MUCH easier. The strings start faster and don't move quite so widely. The D is a bit thuddy but by the time I put the bass away, it was already starting to thin out some. I don't play this bass that much either so after a couple of hours of concentrated playing along with a lot of open string bowing, the bass started opening up in a really nice way.

The last time I tried gut I couldn't stand steel on the A and E. This time I like it. I don't know why. Maybe it has something to do with the increased tension on the G and D. I've only had them on for a couple of hours though. We'll see if I still like the A and E tomorrow. If I don't, I'll put the Gamut A and E back on. I want to play this bass on tomorrow's gig so I might wait until after the D and G settle down some before putting the A and E on (it might nice to have at least two strings in tune during the gig). The G and D were on the bass before so they're already stretched out so they should settle in fairly quickly. I don't know. So far I'm digging the Weich A and Mittel E. They may stay on.

This is the bass I've never found a pickup that I liked so I almost always used it unamplified. On a lark, I slapped on a Stat-B which I thought sounded ok with steel strings but nothing spectacular. It sounds fantastic with gut. Bass but louder. Really. No kidding.

This is as close as I've ever gotten to the Scott Lafaro at the Vanguard sound.

I'm insanely excited about this right now. Let's see if I stay that way tomorrow.

mark
 
#105
If you've gotten close to Scotty's sound, you got somethin! Glad to hear it. Love his tone, especially on vinyl. By the way, wheres your gig? I live outside Wheeling WV, bout 45 minutes away, and would like to check out your sound if its a public gig.
 
#106
calivox said:
I put the Gamut D and G back on the back up bass (replacing the Weichs that were previously on). I left the Weich A and Mittel E on. It sounds <censored>'n incredible. As someone suggested, I strung the D and G with the knots on the outside of the tailpiece and the increase in tension on the G and D makes playing the gut MUCH easier. The strings start faster and don't move quite so widely. The D is a bit thuddy but by the time I put the bass away, it was already starting to thin out some. I don't play this bass that much either so after a couple of hours of concentrated playing along with a lot of open string bowing, the bass started opening up in a really nice way.

The last time I tried gut I couldn't stand steel on the A and E. This time I like it. I don't know why. Maybe it has something to do with the increased tension on the G and D. I've only had them on for a couple of hours though. We'll see if I still like the A and E tomorrow. If I don't, I'll put the Gamut A and E back on. I want to play this bass on tomorrow's gig so I might wait until after the D and G settle down some before putting the A and E on (it might nice to have at least two strings in tune during the gig). The G and D were on the bass before so they're already stretched out so they should settle in fairly quickly. I don't know. So far I'm digging the Weich A and Mittel E. They may stay on.

This is the bass I've never found a pickup that I liked so I almost always used it unamplified. On a lark, I slapped on a Stat-B which I thought sounded ok with steel strings but nothing spectacular. It sounds fantastic with gut. Bass but louder. Really. No kidding.

This is as close as I've ever gotten to the Scott Lafaro at the Vanguard sound.

I'm insanely excited about this right now. Let's see if I stay that way tomorrow.

mark
Click to expand...



Mark, Glad to hear that you're following suit. The Stat-B sounds good with Gut?... oh dear... :help::help::help: restrain me
 
#107
I just changed the strings tonight and only played in my living room. You know how these things go. What sounds good in the living room doesn't always translate to the gig or even to the living room the next day. I'm curious myself to see how much is real and how much is just "new toy syndrome". I'll mess around with it some more at home in the afternoon and I'll see how it goes at the gig tomorrow night which is, for olivieraleman, at Pangaea in Shadyside from 8-11. It is on Bellefonte off of Walnut. I'm playing with Don Aliquo and Tom Glovier. No drums. Introduce yourself if you make it.

I'm still knocked out by the Stat-B though. Usually, I have to work with a pickup, tweak it, mess with the location and pressure and all of that. I just stuck it on, plugged it directly into my Focus and turned everything on. It sounded great immediately. I can't wait to try it again tomorrow.

mark
 
#111
Update.

So in the harsh light of day, I decided I really did hate the gut with the steel E and A afterall so I put the Gamut E and A on. The bass sounds really good now. Full gut. I spent more time with the Stat-B and it still sounds really good. I have all four strings strung reversed at the tailpiece. The added tension is a good thing.

I played a gig with it tonight (my new friend olivieraleman came by and introduced himself). First set I played unamplified. Lots of work but the guts apparently boomed out there (perhaps, olivieraleman can comment from the audience perspective?). It sounded good on stage if not a little soft. Second set, I set the amp up at the request of the leader (Focus into AI cab, Stat B). Much easier to play. Still sounded like my bass but louder. I'm really not used to that.

I LOVE the sound of gut. It just feels like I'm playing jazz. That sound is just so associative of the great jazz records. It really is a change from steel. Playing on gut is like running in deep sand. It can be a slog but the sound is worth it. We played Let Me See at about 300 bpm to end the night (It's a fast rhythm changes tune). I can play it all night on steel strings. I thought my right hand was going to fall off trying to play that one with gut. Fortunately, no one took long solos and I even had a little left over to take a chorus myself.

mark
 
#112
In reply to Marks post, I was sitting half way back in the restaurant. Very noisy. I walked around and his Juzek with guts went clear to the back of the place. Made a believer out of me.
When I played his bass on a break i was struck by how quiet it sounded, probably why the leader wanted it amplified. Wonderful tone, and wonderful playing.
 
#113
Update:

I reinstalled the strings the normal way (knot on the inside as opposed to the outside of the tailpiece) and the bass sounds a little better than it did the other way. More snap and better tone. I don't notice much difference in tension.

I added an AMT (tailpiece mount and run up between the bridge legs; mic just off of the table) to the Stat-B (which still sounds fabulous and I'm still shocked by that as well). For such a simple set up, it sounds incredible through the amp. It even sounds good at stupid loud volumes although it is mostly Stat-B when it gets that loud.

I've used this bass for the last two gigs with very satisfying results even though I'm still getting used to the new feel of the bass. I have gigs tomorrow and Saturday so I'll get a really good idea how this setup translates to different venues after Saturday.

I'm totally grooving on the sound. The more I play it, as the strings stretch out, the more the tone sings. Even the D sounds tight now and it was pretty thuddy when I first put it on. A and E sound like wrapped gut--warm, strong percussive attack but not a lot of growl which is fine with me. I was moving away from the growly E and A sound even when I was using Spiros by trying to play with just the finger tip and not vibrato.

I picked up what was my main bass, still strung with Spiros and it sounds puny to me now. If things continue the way they are, I'm going to have to string the main bass with guts too. It is a far better bass than the back up and should sound amazing.

Ok. Rambing over. Kevin! Are you still using guts? How have things evolved over the past week or so? BTW: this is all your fault. Thanks.

mark
 
#114
calivox said:
Ok. Rambing over. Kevin! Are you still using guts? How have things evolved over the past week or so? BTW: this is all your fault. Thanks.

mark
Click to expand...

Hello from Washington D.C. I'm still loving tbe gut setup but I was able to experience the difference between steel and gut in an interesting way. I'm at the Kennedy Center attending the Betty Carter Jazz Ahead and the three other bassists that got into the residency are all using Spiros. Yesterday we all played in the same room through the same equipment. Three of us had Full Circles and one of us had a BP100. With each of us rotating through to play on the bandstand we all got to hear each other and how each of us sounded in the mix.

The three steel string players cut through to the audience much easier, we were able to hear the notes in a more defined way. However, the reaction of the steel strings with the pickup and the amplifier gave the strings a tinny buzz that all of us here have come to know and love about the Spiros. When I was on, I was confused whether or not my pickup was even working. It seemed as though the setup was way more transparent from Gut --> Full Circle --> GK than it was with Spiros. It was my sound but bigger. However, in this room, I wasn't able to cut through as well, something absorbed all my mids and bass and I ended up sounding muddy in comparison to the steel string players.

This ended up being a problem because with all the new players, it ended up being a soloing contest at times and I'd try to compete with the steel string players with their low action and clearer strings. My eighth notes ended up getting lost and I just ended up making a fool of myself.

Since then, I've decided to simplify and make use of the tone that I hear in my head and have somehow found on my bass and just create something musical without trying to prove my technique. The gut setup really doesn't help in a cutting contest.
 
#115
Kevin Hsieh said:
Since then, I've decided to simplify and make use of the tone that I hear in my head and have somehow found on my bass and just create something musical without trying to prove my technique. The gut setup really doesn't help in a cutting contest.
Click to expand...
That's right. It's forcing you to play music instead of jerk off.
 
#117
Well said Toad.

Not guts, but I put a set of Animas on today and really like them. I noticed that I don't play as busy on them as I did on Obligatos. I think it's prolly because the Obligatos feel so good that I was sliding around more and doing all the pulloffs and ****.
On the rougher Animas I remind me to just lock in and play solid notes.

My favorite bass players sound like they take the role of laying it down very seriously instead of the pyrotechnic stuff anyway.
 
#118
clink said:
Well said Toad.

Not guts, but I put a set of Animas on today and really like them. I noticed that I don't play as busy on them as I did on Obligatos. I think it's prolly because the Obligatos feel so good that I was sliding around more and doing all the pulloffs and ****.
On the rougher Animas I remind me to just lock in and play solid notes.

My favorite bass players sound like they take the role of laying it down very seriously instead of the pyrotechnic stuff anyway.
Click to expand...

The best musicians are those who know how to play everything (on their respective instruments) but then realize what DON"T need to be played. I don't know that I'm there yet, after nearly 20 years on bass (there were other instruments in an earlier time).

Go Kevin-dog.
 
#120
Kevin Hsieh said:
The three steel string players cut through to the audience much easier, we were able to hear the notes in a more defined way.
Click to expand...

The older I get, the less I want to cut through. Listen to the old records. The bass was always under the band and it sounded great. For example, listen to Ron Carter play on Miles Smiles or one of the other mid-60's Miles records when he was unamplified and playing gut and then listen to a VSOP record in the '70s. Same band with Freddie Hubbard in for Miles playing many of the same tunes. Ron is now amplified using those Labella strings. He's instantly recognizable as Ron Carter from the sound alone. He is also now cutting through the band instead of pushing it from underneath. A couple of things are immediately noticeable: the band doesn't sound as good (and I'm talking sound not performance--they are, of course, monsters) and Ron's sound, although recognizable, isn't nearly as nice as from before.


Kevin Hsieh said:
It was my sound but bigger. However, in this room, I wasn't able to cut through as well, something absorbed all my mids and bass and I ended up sounding muddy in comparison to the steel string players.
Click to expand...

That's called masking. All of those nice frequencies that sound great when you're practicing at home are getting covered by other instruments. Here's the rub. If you are specifically focussing on the bass, the sound of steel will jump out at you. Gut will not and will sound muddy in comparison. The question though is which makes the band sound better? There isn't a single answer to that question. If you have a loud, aggressive drummer and chordal instruments covering every frequency, the steel string will probably sound better. If you are playing jazz with musicians who are listening to each other, playing at a reasonable volume and not filling every nook and cranny with extraneous notes, the gut will sound amazing.


Kevin Hsieh said:
This ended up being a problem because with all the new players, it ended up being a soloing contest at times and I'd try to compete with the steel string players with their low action and clearer strings. My eighth notes ended up getting lost and I just ended up making a fool of myself.
Click to expand...

This is why I've tried gut three times but have gone back to steel twice (third time's the charm?). This time I think I've got a handle on it. I love comping with gut but soloing can be really hard and you really can't punch through a band. Steel is really easy to solo on and you can muscle through if the pianist is playing fff with all eleven fingers on the keyboard. I'm not shy about talking to the drummer and chordal instrument before a gig and telling them I'm playing a gut string bass and I can't cut through very easily so would they mind playing sparsely or dropping out when I'm soloing. So far everyone has been supportive and gone along with it and I get my tones without masking for my solos.

Kevin Hsieh said:
Since then, I've decided to simplify and make use of the tone that I hear in my head and have somehow found on my bass and just create something musical without trying to prove my technique. The gut setup really doesn't help in a cutting contest.
Click to expand...

I haven't given up on flashing some chops with gut. It can be done. You need to differentiate what works with steel with what works with gut. Some things that are easy to pull off on steel strings just don't work on gut but there are plenty of things that work on gut that don't sound right with steel. For example, most of the Scott Lafaro lines sound fairly lousy on steel but great on gut. My short term goal is dedicated to working out new solo ideas. It is really like starting over. Gut is really percussive in a way that steel strings aren't so I'm trying to find solo lines that use that. I've been listening to Lafaro, Chambers, Mingus and Miroslav Vitous and blatantly stealing stuff and trying to absorb it into my thing. It's going to be a long process. I've had a few gigs with gut this time around and so far everyone including me has loved it which is enough motivation to keep going.

mark
 
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