hartke 3500 parametric equalizer

[Mr. BassmanPT]

i have an hartke 3500 amp and a 4.5xl bass module that i use play live.

the amplifier is connected to the PA and the signal carries the parametric settings. i have a very defined sound in the hartke cabinet but some fellow bassist say that through the PA the sound is somewhat "less defined".

i believe this is due to the parametric equalizer i am using. i do not have the amplifier with me but from the top of my head i have it like this:

tube: 8
solid state: 2
compressor: 3 or 4
low pass: 75% if you consider the minimum 0%
high pass: 60% if you consider the minimum 0%

the hard part. the parametric equalizer. there are 10 different frequencies but i have them in a "V" shape. not a single one of them is at the maximum, not a single of them is below flat. this is giving me a fat sound in my cabinet but some of my friends say that it is just not working in the PA.

can anyone give me some tips? how should i set up the amplifier? are there any examples of equalizations posted online? we are playing pop/rock covers.

hope to get some help.

regards

 

[Bootzilla]

If it's undifined you should try to cut some lows and add some mids. If you cut the low lows and compensate in the low mids you might still have a fat sound but without the undefined rumble. Try cutting below 80hz and boosting around 200/300 hz. If your cutting mids that will also make you less defined so don't cut to much (if at all) between 200/1000.

Also try looking up some eq faq's on this forum. There are some descriptions of what cutting/boosting different frequency areas sounds like.

 

[Mr. BassmanPT]

If it's undifined you should try to cut some lows and add some mids. If you cut the low lows and compensate in the low mids you might still have a fat sound but without the undefined rumble. Try cutting below 80hz and boosting around 200/300 hz. If your cutting mids that will also make you less defined so don't cut to much (if at all) between 200/1000.

Also try looking up some eq faq's on this forum. There are some descriptions of what cutting/boosting different frequency areas sounds like.

thanks.. i will try that.

i am also reading the hartke manual, maybe i can get an explanation there.

i am also searching the forum, i am not having much luck finding those topics. i typed "how to parametric equalizer", it gives me a chunk of topics but from the ones i've seen there was no tutorial.

even google wasn't my friend

 

[jero182]

I remember that my HA3500 sounded really fat if i boosted the low pass. Also if you only boost the parametric eq it will sound less defined, I suggest you lower everything on the eq...

Those hartke heads are really hardworking and nice sounding puppies with loads of posibilities.

 

[Passinwind]

That amp has a ten band graphic EQ.

 

[Bootzilla]

There is this: http://ovnilab.com/articles/eqtypes.shtml

I couldn't find the post about the eq frequency bands but it's in a sticky somewhere...

 

[Jefenator]

That amp has a ten band graphic EQ.

+1. Graphic, not parametric.

I left it switched out when I had that head, never cared for it much. (Though the little LED on each slider certainly did look awesome.)

IME the lowest band should seldom if ever be boosted way up. That's often set way down in boomy, indistinct, feedback, strain your amp & speakers territory. 120 hz gets me the low sound & feel I like.

I usually start with everything in the middle and if seems like I could use a little more - or less - of something I'll bump that band up - or down just a little at a time. Gentle curves are favored, extreme zig-zags should be avoided.

 

[Bootzilla]

I found it: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144312

 

[Pat C.]

can anyone give me some tips? how should i set up the amplifier?

The smiley face, or in you case - the extreme V - is the unfortunate default graphic (yes, it's a graphic, not parametric) EQ used by bass players, guitar players, DJs and soundmen the world over. If that's the tone you like, keep it. But as you know it is probably wrecking havoc with you DI signal in the PA because the mid frequencies of your bass - the ones that most define pitch and contribute to clarity - are likely being buried by the boosted bass frequencies.

The easiest fix that won't involve you changing any of your amp settings is to use an external DI to go to the PA before your amp's input. That way the soundguy gets a clean, non EQ'd tone from your bass which will free him up from your personal EQ and allow him to place your signal in the mix a bit better. He will still be able to give you a big bass tone with scooped mids in the house, if that's what you want, and he will be able to do it in the context of the rest of the mix and in conjunction with the tuning of the PA as a whole.

 

[bassman1185]

Does your amp have a pre/post EQ switch for the DI? If so, set it on "pre" and let your soundguy EQ your tone through the mains. When you send him a big scooped signal, you make his life a whole lot harder.

If your band provides your own PA support and do not have a soundman, try getting a preamp-style DI with an EQ built in. I have an MXR M-80 that I like a lot for dealing with poor (or non-existant) soundguys. Just use the pass through output to send your signal to your amp and you won't mess with your on-stage tone.

 

[kalle74]

Does your amp have a pre/post EQ switch for the DI? If so, set it on "pre" and let your soundguy EQ your tone through the mains.

It does. Set it on "pre".

 

[jaywa]

Long-time Hartke 3500/410-XL cab player here who fed the P.A. from the onboard XLR out as a matter of course.

Yes I had the exact same problem for years as the OP describes... lots of punch and definition coming out of the cab, not so much out of FOH.

Yes it is a 10-band graphic EQ (sliders), not a parametric (knobs).

Yes there is a pre/post switch which loops the graphic EQ out of the signal going to the board but does NOT loop out the Tube/SS pre-amp settings nor the Contour (Lo and Hi Pass) settings... those controls affect the signal to the board regardless.

Best approach I found was to add a little bit of bottom via the Lo Contour (no more than about 1 o'clock), leave the Hi Contour at high noon and set the XLR out to "Pre" which allowed me to use the graphic EQ totally to tweak my onstage sound without affecting the feed to the house.

Also... Tube pre-amp set to 8 is pretty high. I would recommend pulling back the Tube setting to 4 or 5 and making up the difference on the Solid State side. You will still have a decent amount of warmth but pick up a little definition.

Hope this helps.

 

[Mr. BassmanPT]

I remember that my HA3500 sounded really fat if i boosted the low pass. Also if you only boost the parametric eq it will sound less defined, I suggest you lower everything on the eq...

Those hartke heads are really hardworking and nice sounding puppies with loads of posibilities.

i will have to experiment a lot, i do not have the amp with me, it is in the drummer house.

That amp has a ten band graphic EQ.

yes, i just noticed that was the way i was calling it for many years.. i always mentioned parametric equalizer in my life

There is this: http://ovnilab.com/articles/eqtypes.shtml

I couldn't find the post about the eq frequency bands but it's in a sticky somewhere...

i will take a look in there. thank you for pointing that for me.

+1. Graphic, not parametric.

I left it switched out when I had that head, never cared for it much. (Though the little LED on each slider certainly did look awesome.)

IME the lowest band should seldom if ever be boosted way up. That's often set way down in boomy, indistinct, feedback, strain your amp & speakers territory. 120 hz gets me the low sound & feel I like.

I usually start with everything in the middle and if seems like I could use a little more - or less - of something I'll bump that band up - or down just a little at a time. Gentle curves are favored, extreme zig-zags should be avoided.

maybe i need a sad face in the graphic equalizer? i will try to invert its face and see if i like the results

I found it: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144312

hey, thanks a lot mate.

The smiley face, or in you case - the extreme V - is the unfortunate default graphic (yes, it's a graphic, not parametric) EQ used by bass players, guitar players, DJs and soundmen the world over. If that's the tone you like, keep it. But as you know it is probably wrecking havoc with you DI signal in the PA because the mid frequencies of your bass - the ones that most define pitch and contribute to clarity - are likely being buried by the boosted bass frequencies.

The easiest fix that won't involve you changing any of your amp settings is to use an external DI to go to the PA before your amp's input. That way the soundguy gets a clean, non EQ'd tone from your bass which will free him up from your personal EQ and allow him to place your signal in the mix a bit better. He will still be able to give you a big bass tone with scooped mids in the house, if that's what you want, and he will be able to do it in the context of the rest of the mix and in conjunction with the tuning of the PA as a whole.

why do you say the smiley face is unfortunate default graphic equalizer? is it because of the mess it causes? lol

i see what you said, i have the option to send a shaped signal or not to the PA. but i prefer to shape my sound, i opened this topic because i faced the critics those fellows made me in a positive way. i want to get better so i am asking for help.

this option, to let the signal unshaped is the easiest one for me, although i like to try the sound and see how it goes the next time. if i go into too much trouble i will send a clean signal. if it sounds bad, blame the sound guy

LOL

Does your amp have a pre/post EQ switch for the DI? If so, set it on "pre" and let your soundguy EQ your tone through the mains. When you send him a big scooped signal, you make his life a whole lot harder.

If your band provides your own PA support and do not have a soundman, try getting a preamp-style DI with an EQ built in. I have an MXR M-80 that I like a lot for dealing with poor (or non-existant) soundguys. Just use the pass through output to send your signal to your amp and you won't mess with your on-stage tone.

yes, we have our own PA.. but like i said previously, i will try to get a better signal on my own, i will learn from this

It does. Set it on "pre".

that is correct.

Long-time Hartke 3500/410-XL cab player here who fed the P.A. from the onboard XLR out as a matter of course.

Yes I had the exact same problem for years as the OP describes... lots of punch and definition coming out of the cab, not so much out of FOH.

Yes it is a 10-band graphic EQ (sliders), not a parametric (knobs).

Yes there is a pre/post switch which loops the graphic EQ out of the signal going to the board but does NOT loop out the Tube/SS pre-amp settings nor the Contour (Lo and Hi Pass) settings... those controls affect the signal to the board regardless.

Best approach I found was to add a little bit of bottom via the Lo Contour (no more than about 1 o'clock), leave the Hi Contour at high noon and set the XLR out to "Pre" which allowed me to use the graphic EQ totally to tweak my onstage sound without affecting the feed to the house.

Also... Tube pre-amp set to 8 is pretty high. I would recommend pulling back the Tube setting to 4 or 5 and making up the difference on the Solid State side. You will still have a decent amount of warmth but pick up a little definition.

Hope this helps.

didn't knew about the contour and tube/ss not being carried over. i will try to level the ss and tube to 5/5.



i have another question. when you go and play in different rooms, do you always reset your equalizers and start over? or have you found a formula and use it regardless of the characteristics of the room you are playing? i notice that my sound varies a lot depending on the room i am playing but never bothered to try a different (more suitable) equalization.

and if you use more than one bass? how do you do?



EDIT: thanks a lot for all these replies, loads of good information here. regards to all of you!

 

[JTE]

A. The "smiley face" is generally pretty useless in the real world. You're boosting the lows (which robs the amp of power) and the highs, but the essential mids are reduced. The mids are where the character of YOUR sound is. While the "stupid smile" may sound cool when you're playing all by yourself, it's utterly useless in a band context because there's too much going on all over the place. It's an unfortunate default for two reasons. First, when graphic EQ's started coming out on equipment available to the general public, in order to draw attention to them, sales people would draw pictures with the EQ instead of actually trying to EQUALIZE the gear to the room. Second, the Recording Industry Association of America recommended essentially a smiley face to EQ phonograph albums. That's because vinyl phonograph recordings couldn't have a large amount of lows (because the needle would jump out of the groove) nor highs (because of residual noise). So they mastered the albums with reduced lows and highs, with the expectation that they'd be added back when played back.

Use the EQ correctly. Start with everything flat. No boost, no cut. Balance your two pre-amps to get as close to the sound you want as possible (and gauge it by how it sounds with the whole band playing, not how it sounds by yourself). My recollection of the two Hartke 3500 amps I had is that the solid-state pre was pretty mid-range heavy while the tube pre-amp was pretty notched in the mids already. Then judiciously use the shelving (bass and treble) controls to tune in your sound better. THEN use the graphic EQ to shape the sound for the particular room you're in.

Also, set the DI to "pre" so that the front-of-house gets a signal that's not jerked around trying to make your 4.5 sound the way you want it too. It's unpopular here on TB, but sending the FOH an EQ'd signal in NO WAY gives the FOH "your sound". You are trying to make your sound come out of a 175 watt amp (assuming a single 4.5XL which is an 8Ω load) with four 10" speakers and small cone tweeter. And that 4.5XL is made to have a particular sound for electric bass.

But that same signal going through a PA system with lots of power, 18" subs, and a full-range set of speakers is going to sound a LOT different. The more EQ you add to what the soundboard gets, the more they have to do to make it sound good in the main speakers. All that processing starts making the sound indistinct and mushy.

John

 

[Pat C.]

why do you say the smiley face is unfortunate default graphic equalizer? is it because of the mess it causes? lol

Some of the use of that curve can be attributed to our natural hearing ability. We are more sensitive to mid and higher frequencies, so a boost of lows and upper highs can balance our perception of the music being played. I don't think that this pertains to bass guitar as much due to the lack of significant mid and high frequencies. I think some bass player's preference for boosted highs and lows, or cut mids (scooped EQ) may be to a general affinity for lows as well as a desire to minimize some attack and/or harshness in the mid frequencies.

As a couple of other people have said, the less EQ needed and applied, the better. Boosted lows will eat up headroom in the amplifier and you can run the risk of potentially damaging your speakers. The amount of boost your graphic shows is not entirely accurate in indicating the increased gain at those frequencies because adjacent frequencies that are boosted will combine to a higher level of gain. By boosting the lowest frequencies (32 and 64 hz) you are using huge amounts of amplifier power to require your speakers to reproduce frequencies that they are probably not very good at producing.

Next time you play, try this. Leave the graphic flat except for a small boost at 64hz and a small cut at 1k or 2k. Play a couple of songs with the band. Let us know how it sounds.

i see what you said, i have the option to send a shaped signal or not to the PA. but i prefer to shape my sound, i opened this topic because i faced the critics those fellows made me in a positive way. i want to get better so i am asking for help.

Use the pre-EQ DI if you can, the EQ you apply to your stage rig will not translate ideally to the PA.

i have another question. when you go and play in different rooms, do you always reset your equalizers and start over? or have you found a formula and use it regardless of the characteristics of the room you are playing? i notice that my sound varies a lot depending on the room i am playing but never bothered to try a different (more suitable) equalization.

With lows boosted you're more likely to have problems with this. Most of the time the room will have an impact on the bass sound. There is very little you can do about this other than not excite the room at the frequencies where there are issues. You cannot tame a room with the EQ on your amp, you can only put less sound out there by cutting certain frequencies. Another example why the less EQ used (boosted), the better off you'll be. Sometimes positioning the bass amp on a different part of the stage, or in a slightly different direction (for example, across the stage instead of out at the audience) can help in certain rooms.

As a bass player first and sound guy second I definitely think the bass is better projected through a good PA system than by a bass amp from the stage. And that's coming from guy with a 1500 watt bass amp. I've played shows where I did not like my bass tone on stage very much at all - or (god forbid) had to turn down - but it was what worked in that particular room. In those situations you have to decide what's more important to you, how it sounds to you on stage, or how it sounds to the audience.

You're doing the right thing by trying to figure out what works best, and ultimately you should not be afraid to experiment a little. We all get used to a certain sound, "that's my tone and I like it and I don't want to change it", but in reality there are quite a few useful tones that can be created with the average bass and amp. Get the DI signal sorted out, then fill in your stage sound so that it sounds the best it can in the venue. Let us know how that approach works out for you.

 

[Mr. BassmanPT]

i am glad i made this topic, i feel like i learned from you guys. many thanks, i will leave feedback on how it went soon enough.

regards

 

[Mr. BassmanPT]

had compliments on my sound last night. i took your advice, switched to "pre" in the back of the amp, boosted some mids and reduced the lows. the sound was very clear and i was happy with the overall output through the PA.

i noticed i lost a bit of highs though, i have another gig today and will try to fix that by boosting some high in the graphic equalizer.

 

[jaywa]

had compliments on my sound last night. i took your advice, switched to "pre" in the back of the amp, boosted some mids and reduced the lows. the sound was very clear and i was happy with the overall output through the PA.

i noticed i lost a bit of highs though, i have another gig today and will try to fix that by boosting some high in the graphic equalizer.

If you're running "pre" and direct to the board, you will have to add highs at the board... remember that in the "pre" setting the graphic EQ only affects what's coming out of your cabinet. OTOH if you're micing your cabinet the graphic EQ will affect your sound in the front of house.

 

[eriky4003]

Crap. I wish I'd known about this forum a few years ago while I was using the smiley face eq (I had cut the 30 Hz!) and blowing the 15"s in my Peavey 1516 and more recently the GK Neo 115 iii.