Has anyone bought and NOT liked a Sadowsky??

[Brad Johnson]

That's exactly right. SX Jazz bass bodies and USA Fender Jazz bass bodies are both cut with CNC machines. There is a *substantial* difference in cost between the two. Kinda gets one thinkin', doesn't it?

Since I've yet to play an SX, nice though they may be, that remotely reminded me of a well set up US Fender, no... it doesn't get me thinking.

People, and no I'm not necessarily saying you, seem to have this idea that a CNC is somehow akin to a Easy Bake oven (tm).


That's just a part of the build process. It doesn't necessarily define the instrument.

I've come to the conclusion that I might be a bit more pragmatic when it comes to instruments than many folks. I just can't make myself dwell on things that really aren't important (like which side of the headstock the tuners fall on with a five string) if I come across a bass that sounds and plays great. Esthetics go to the back of the bus at that point. I play the damn things so if the back woods of a bass have a small imperfection, so what?

I cannot tell by feel or hearing whether or not a bass has been CNC'd somewhere in it's build process. Can't tell by sight either. So it's no big deal either way for me. I also don't concern myself with what it actually costs a luthier to build an instrument (people citing parts prices is beyond goofy and their flaunting of their general ignorance of business even moreso IMO), I have to simply decide based on what I know about the market and what I'm willing to pay... what I'm willing to pay based on what the bass does in my hands.


But that's just me. If it's important to you, it's improtant to you.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I know it wasn't about that. Like you said, he wanted to know about the feel and sound, and my point and subsequently my answer to the OP (as long-winded as it was) was simply "hmm...i don't know, and you won't know either until YOU hold one...feel and sound is subjective."

He's asking other people. He won't know until they tell him.

 

[Brad Johnson]

maybe the last part of my post was a bit much, but I do believe some people just took shots solely at Roger (i.e. not at any other boutique builder that does similar practices) that I believe were uncalled for.

Did you report them? Apparently not. That's what the report function is for.

As the last guy just pointed out, it's a public forum lol.

Interesting. So does that mean just deal with it or keep asking for it to be closed. After all, it's a public forum.


Asking for the thread to be closed is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Also, It was enough to provoke Roger to defend himself...so you tell me.

Tell you what?


The people who took swipes at Roger accomplished one thing IMO. They made themselves look like jackholes. Why not let that stand?

Anyways, I said my piece mainly because most people were bringing up why one would chose a certain bass over Sadowsky, I just wanted to give any other potential buyers (and i still consider myself one, I don't possess a Sadowsky yet) a counter-point to those comments. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.

I didn't ask for the thread to be closed. Ruffled feathers usually instigate that request.

 

[JimmyM]

if this thread gets closed, how will we see pics of hot chicks? there's almost nowhere on the internet you can see that.

 

[capnsandwich]

if this thread gets closed, how will we see pics of hot chicks? there's almost nowhere on the internet you can see that.

PM me Jimmy. I'll hook you up.

 

[nostatic]

if this thread gets closed, how will we see pics of hot chicks? there's almost nowhere on the internet you can see that.

finally, a man thinking with his head

 

[Dr. Cheese]

finally, a man thinking with his head

Not the big one!

 

[Lesfunk]

I can't believe this silly thread is still going.

 

[g4string]

Unsubscribed.....

 

[johndough247]

Did you report them? Apparently not. That's what the report function is for.



Interesting. So does that mean just deal with it or keep asking for it to be closed. After all, it's a public forum.


Asking for the thread to be closed is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.



Tell you what?


The people who took swipes at Roger accomplished one thing IMO. They made themselves look like jackholes. Why not let that stand?



I didn't ask for the thread to be closed. Ruffled feathers usually instigate that request.

Sigh...ok Brad Johnson. Thanks for informing me about the report button and your other nuggets of wisdom, Brad Johnson. Will adhere to your advice in the future, Brad Johnson. (though I'd really like to know where I specifically asked for it to be closed...anyways moving on lol)

 

[Hounddog]

It gets one thinking that CNC is not the issue. Programming, wood quality and selection, parts quality (gears, bridges, electronics, etc) skilled craftspersons for finish, fretwork, wiring, assembly and set-up, and quality control standards through every step of the process is what makes the difference.

I can assure you if you provided me with all the parts that go into as SX bass, it would be better than a production one, but still not a great bass. There is an old expression "you can't polish a turd".

Roger

+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 I love it. Well said Roger.

 

[bass12]

For me, I find the people behind the instrument to be a critical factor in my choice of instrument. It is worth it to me to know the people who make the tool I'll use to make music. People like Roger, Rob Allen, Carey Norstrand, Keith Roscoe, etc make me perfectly willing to spend my hard-earned money on their instruments. Does it make the bass sound better? Maybe, maybe not. But making music is about more than just the final sound. The process is important. Some people can use any tool and be happy. Others want more (be it fit/finish, aesthetic, brand recognition, whatever), and value the relationship that comes with working with a small builder. Thankfully, we have a market that provides instruments for people no matter what their means or preference.

This is a good point and it makes me think of chocolate. I regularly visit a small independent chocolate shop where I like to get my cocoa fix. While I think the chocolate at this shop is fantastic, I also go there for a different reason. Every time I visit the shop I end up talking with either the chocolate maker himself or his wife; and every time I leave the store I think to myself how important it is to have small "mom and pop" type businesses run by people who really love what they do and take great pride in their products. Same thing with basses. I think a lot of bigger companies make some good, solid basses that can deliver what a given player might need at what is often a comparatively low price. I don't have anything against supporting such companies (I love my Fender) but, ultimately, I'd rather support one of the smaller companies run by artisans.

 

[Nenor]

When you're spending your money, yes it is all about you. Who else would it be about? You may disagree with his stance but as long as it's his money, his logic prevails as to what he spends it on. Right?

Sure it's about him and his money, but you skipped over my point there, haven't you?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Sigh...ok Brad Johnson. Thanks for informing me about the report button and your other nuggets of wisdom, Brad Johnson. Will adhere to your advice in the future, Brad Johnson. (though I'd really like to know where I specifically asked for it to be closed...anyways moving on lol)

Ok johndough, my explanation that the thread didn't necessarily need to be closed to address the problems really bounced, johndough. johndough, you don't have to adhere to any advice I've given, johndough, just keep on doing what you do, johndough.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Sure it's about him and his money, but you skipped over my point there, haven't you?

Didn't think so, let's see...

"So this is really all about you. You need to be convinced that whoever gets your money worked hard as hell, burned his bones to the ground, smoked off his butt... whatever. Using CNC in your view takes off the hard work you'd expect to get from your bass builder. It seems you are not so much concerned about the end product but counting how many coffee mugs are on the table at 20 Jay St. Common!
Check the basses, ask around about customer service, check out who is playing these basses. You ARE getting the highest level of craftsmanship when you buy a Sadowsky bass.
If they're not for you, don't buy one. If they're priced too high in your opinion, don't buy one. I don't get into this because it's irrelevant. If it was too expensive Roger would have gone out of business. I got mine used because I can't afford a new one. Maybe one day.. "


Your point seems to be, to whatever issues he has with them, whatever. He should check them out anyway, ask around about the customer service, check who's playing them. Because you know he hasn't already done that or deemed whether or not that was of importance to him?

I don't agree with his critique of Roger but that doesn't change the fact that when he's spending his money he gets to decide whatever parameters apply to that purchase. When I make a purchase CS is important but who is playing one means squat. Absolutely diddly. He may feel the same way and frankly who else is playing a bass is easily the most unimportant reason to buy one I can think of unless the buyer is misguided enough to think that by buying the same gear they'll get the same results. That's usually painfully wrong.


So yeah, I saw all that the first time around.

 

[Nenor]

So yeah, I saw all that the first time around.

My point is that even though you might prefer other basses and go by different parameters to decide where your money goes, which is totally legitimate, you still have no right to write this:

No offense to Roger at all, but when I shell out that kind of money (which I have for several Conklins in the past), I want to to know my instruments are hand-made and that they weren't, in my opinion, tossed on a CNC while the operator grabbed a coffee. I want to know my money was spent on that level of craftsmanship. I am well aware of the programming and work that goes into CNC work, so before y'all attack that comment, just stop.

Why did he start with "No offense to Roger " when that's all he does?

Saying "look at who is playing these basses" doesn't mean it's a reason to buy one. It means look at the reputation and respect Roger Sadowsky has earned over the years and think twice before you write. Stick to the dry facts. Don't paint a false insulting picture around them, and please do try to get the facts right.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough the first time...

 

[Brad Johnson]

My point is that even though you might prefer other basses and go by different parameters to decide where your money goes, which is totally legitimate, you still have no right to write this:

Actually he does have a right to write that.

Why did he start with "No offense to Roger " when that's all he does?

I get the impression that he thinks that about CNC's period. In that light, is it still offensive to Roger if this guy doesn't care for CNC'd instruments?

Two other builders were mentioned as non-CNC shops. Both of whom utilize CNCs. I'm fairly sure that sooner or later the stigma over CNC's will fade, in the meantime if someone wants to think it means something, they can.

Saying "look at who is playing these basses" doesn't mean it's a reason to buy one. It means look at the reputation and respect Roger Sadowsky has earned over the years and think twice before you write. Stick to the dry facts. Don't paint a false insulting picture around them, and please do try to get the facts right.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough the first time...

You're asking an awful lot of the internet.



The look at who's playing them thing again IMO means nothing as far as a potential purchase goes for many folks. Look at who's playing Gibson basses for example. That certainly wouldn't sway me.


Some guys simply want Ernie Keebler crafting their custom instruments, in between baking pecan sandies.

 

[Nenor]

Do you think if this guy wrote "I don't like anything to do with CNC machines in regard to bass building..." I would have responded at all? Read again what he wrote. It's not about CNC, it's about tagging anyone who uses CNC as charging money for nothing and laughing their way to the bank. Sorry, that's what it was.
Again, I'm not saying "look at what he/she plays" as a reason to get one. I'm saying look at how well known and well used are Sadowsky instruments in the professional industry. They're the choice of so many top working bassists, probably for a good reason. Don't get one, that's OK, but consider the facts. And have some respect... that's good for anything in life.

 

[Carey]

I'm sorry you took offense to my post. One of the reasons I liked you (much like why I have always liked Bill Conklin, Mike Tobias, The Roscoe crew, etc.), is you never used to come off as another Ken Smith.

Ken Smith huh? Well, I'm sorry if you think I come off like Ken Smith these days. That's certainly not my intent.

I didn't take any offense to your post at all. I just wanted to make sure you understood that your perceptions of how we build basses was incorrect. If, based on those perceptions we are now off your list of potential bass purchases, well then I find that regrettable. But I'd hate for you to purchase one of our instruments and find out later that, horror of horrors, it was made with a CNC. That would not be honest on my part.

Let me ask you a question: Do you think that as a manufacturer, I wouldn't like to find the best way to make the best product I can at the best price I can make it? What if a CNC makes it possible to achieve a better product at a better price?

I can hear you then asking, well, why does Roger charge so much more than you or builder X, Y, or Z? What I can tell you is that that question is irrelevant, except in your mind where you have some idea of fairness and expect the world to conform to that. All that matters is that the market is just fine with Roger's prices and he runs a successful business, even with what you percieve as unfair pricing. If you think his basses are too expensive then don't buy one. The market won't really care.

I, for one, am glad he charges the prices that he does. And, I think his basses are worth it when you factor in unquestionably excellent customer service and support. Frankly, he helps make room in the market for upstarts like us and sets a standard to aspire to. Personally, I am grateful for these things.

I honestly hope you don't think less of me for anything I'm saying here. I'm trying to be as clear as I can about how and why I run my company the way I do and I feel I have some insight to offer as to a) how Roger runs his company and b) this corner of the industry in general. If my insights here don't change your mind that's fine with me. I've said my piece.

I did, however, feel the need to speak up for the sake of honesty and clarity.

 

[KJung]

Ken Smith huh? Well, I'm sorry if you think I come off like Ken Smith these days. That's certainly not my intent.

I didn't take any offense to your post at all. I just wanted to make sure you understood that your perceptions of how we build basses was incorrect. If, based on those perceptions we are now off your list of potential bass purchases, well then I find that regrettable. But I'd hate for you to purchase one of our instruments and find out later that, horror of horrors, it was made with a CNC. That would not be honest on my part.

Let me ask you a question: Do you think that as a manufacturer, I wouldn't like to find the best way to make the best product I can at the best price I can make it? What if a CNC makes it possible to achieve a better product at a better price?

I can hear you then asking, well, why does Roger charge so much more than you or builder X, Y, or Z? What I can tell you is that that question is irrelevant, except in your mind where you have some idea of fairness and expect the world to conform to that. All that matters is that the market is just fine with Roger's prices and he runs a successful business, even with what you percieve as unfair pricing. If you think his basses are too expensive then don't buy one. The market won't really care.

I, for one, am glad he charges the prices that he does. And, I think his basses are worth it when you factor in unquestionably excellent customer service and support. Frankly, he helps make room in the market for upstarts like us and sets a standard to aspire to. Personally, I am grateful for these things.

I honestly hope you don't think less of me for anything I'm saying here. I'm trying to be as clear as I can about how and why I run my company the way I do and I feel I have some insight to offer as to a) how Roger runs his company and b) this corner of the industry in general. If my insights here don't change your mind that's fine with me. I've said my piece.

I did, however, feel the need to speak up for the sake of honesty and clarity.

Hey, get off this thread and spit one of those VP5's out of that CNC machine for me, will ya?