Has Gretsch been lying to us for over a decade?

[gln1955]

You don't think periodically inspecting your products coming off the line to make sure they contain the correct parts would be a quality control point?

This is exactly the kind of value-added QC process that you'd expect on a more expensive product, and exactly the kind of corner that gets cut on the cheap one.

Not doing basic QC on a product for years on end is a business model failure, not a QC issue.

 

[LBS-bass]

Not doing basic QC on a product for years on end is a business model failure, not a QC issue.

That's a matter of opinion, isn't it? When the mandate is to keep costs low, what incentive is there to add to the cost by doing this? I'm not saying it's right, but I'm saying that when you buy cheap stuff you kinda have to expect it to be cheaply made. Ignoring this basic economic reality is a bit too pie-in-the-sky for me.

 

[Crawforde]

If low end QC protocols were the full answer then they should just sell inexpensive instruments as having “pickups” and not go through the trouble of writing incorrect product descriptions. They paid attention to marketing and sales, not their product. Unfortunately that’s an issue we all have to deal with everywhere.
This whole “responsibility to the shareholders to maximize profits“ thing is an overused excuse for bad business behavior.

 

[LBS-bass]

If low end QC protocols were the full answer then they should just sell inexpensive instruments as having “pickups” and not go through the trouble of writing incorrect product descriptions. They paid attention to marketing and sales, not their product. Unfortunately that’s an issue we all have to deal with everywhere.
This whole “responsibility to the shareholders to maximize profits“ thing is an overused excuse for bad business behavior.

I agree with you. Again, I'm talking about expectations, and I don't know what occurred here or how it occurred but my expectation would be that it would have been caught at some point if this were a more expensive product. I think people are having trouble with that concept. Cheap stuff is going to be cheap. But there's still a problem here.

I don't claim to know where the disconnect would be between production and marketing, but there clearly is one.

It's interesting to me that we have hardly discussed the fact that one dual-coil humbucker actually was found, and it was living in the single pickup version of this bass.

That points to a few possibilities. It's possible that this was always going to have single-coils in it, but the marketing people were told "it's basically the same product with two pickups" so they ran with that. Lord knows I've seen worse things at my own job with disconnects between the people responsible for communications / marketing and the people responsible for making the sausage. It's possible someone said "let's just tell them they're humbuckers" but I think that's a less likely scenario. It'll be interesting to me to know how this all happened, but I don't think we'll ever get a real answer.

 

[defdog99]

I wonder if Fender should punt some of its properties like when it dropped Dearmond and Heartfield to keep Squier relevant.

Would Gretsch or Jackson survive?

 

[gln1955]

That's a matter of opinion, isn't it? When the mandate is to keep costs low, what incentive is there to add to the cost by doing this? I'm not saying it's right, but I'm saying that when you buy cheap stuff you kinda have to expect it to be cheaply made. Ignoring this basic economic reality is a bit too pie-in-the-sky for me.

Expecting the correct type of pickup in a bass at any price point is hardly pie in the sky. I've never heard of anything like this happening with low end Squiers or the like.

 

[LBS-bass]

Expecting the correct type of pickup in a bass at any price point is hardly pie in the sky. I've never heard of anything like this happening with low end Squiers or the like.

I think you miss my point. Expecting a high level of quality-control on a cheap product IS pie in the sky.

I have never said this scenario is right, or that it should have happened. It did happen, though, and once it happened it kept happening because NOBODY INSPECTED THE PRODUCT. And why is that?

It's apparently been going on for a long time and no one has caught onto it until now. At the end of the day it's still a cheap product and I'm not losing sleep over the fact that somehow this got screwed up. It doesn't excuse that the problem happened, but again, that's not what I'm talking about, and I realize it's really, really hard for most people to hold two concepts in mind simultaneously and discuss without conflating those concepts. That is part of what makes internet discussion so frustrating and inefficient.

My only point - I would be royally pissed if this happened to my $2000 bass, because I would expect better quality control from the company at that price point to assure that NO PROBLEM OF ANY KIND would slip through the cracks.

The rest of this, as I said, is what you all are focusing on, which is fine, but it is, once again, not part of the point I am making, which is that cheap products are cheap, and caveat emptor clearly applies.

 

[Ostie]

I would take my bass apart and shield it but it doesn’t hum, so I don’t want to fix what ain’t broken. If I ever do, I’ll post pics.

 

[Old_Noob]

Expecting a high level of quality-control on a cheap product IS pie in the sky.
....

My only point - I would be royally pissed if this happened to my $2000 bass, because I would expect better quality control from the company at that price point to assure that NO PROBLEM OF ANY KIND would slip through the cracks.

The rest of this, as I said, is what you all are focusing on, which is fine, but it is, once again, not part of the point I am making, which is that cheap products are cheap, and caveat emptor clearly applies.

You are conflating QUALITY of the product with the DESCRIPTION of the product. The two are not the same.

So what if it is a budget or entry-level bass? When buying at that price point, I expect them to use poopy tuners, poopy strings, maybe the fit and finish won't be the best, maybe the neck pocket might be a tad oversized.....all stuff that can be remedied usually----->but I sure as poopie expect the actual parts to be what they say they are going to be. Even if I buy a cheap steak, I expect it to be actual meat, not tofu. And thats the bottom line here. People were told the product have X features and it turns out it doesn't. Yeah, it still is a decent budget bass, but it is not what was advertised.

Its not "pie in the sky" to expect something to contain the features that it is advertised to have. That is basic truth in advertising. The fact that something is at a budget price point is not a license for the manufacturer to misrepresent what the product actually is.

 

[LBS-bass]

You are conflating QUALITY of the product with the DESCRIPTION of the product. The two are not the same.

No, I'm not conflating. I've mentioned three times now that I'm talking about only one of those aspects.

Everyone else here seems to want me to be conflating, or wishes to argue with me as though I am conflating, but I am not the one doing that, and I have zero interest in arguing about it

Have a lovely day everyone. It's my birthday and I'd rather not spend it on this thread explaining the same thing over and over to people who don't want to take an extra moment to parse my actual point. Stop quoting me; I'm turning off alerts, so I won't know anyway.

Enjoy your day, and I'll see you all on other threads

 

[gln1955]

I think you miss my point. Expecting a high level of quality-control on a cheap product IS pie in the sky.

I have never said this scenario is right, or that it should have happened. It did happen, though, and once it happened it kept happening because NOBODY INSPECTED THE PRODUCT. And why is that?

It's apparently been going on for a long time and no one has caught onto it until now. At the end of the day it's still a cheap product and I'm not losing sleep over the fact that somehow this got screwed up. It doesn't excuse that the problem happened, but again, that's not what I'm talking about, and I realize it's really, really hard for most people to hold two concepts in mind simultaneously and discuss without conflating those concepts. That is part of what makes internet discussion so frustrating and inefficient.

My only point - I would be royally pissed if this happened to my $2000 bass, because I would expect better quality control from the company at that price point to assure that NO PROBLEM OF ANY KIND would slip through the cracks.

The rest of this, as I said, is what you all are focusing on, which is fine, but it is, once again, not part of the point I am making, which is that cheap products are cheap, and caveat emptor clearly applies.

I didn't miss your point. I just disagree with it. If you are OK with them throwing in whatever pickup happens to be lying around, you might as well buy a $100 Alibaba knockoff.

 

[Gostdevil]

I have never said this scenario is right, or that it should have happened. It did happen, though, and once it happened it kept happening because NOBODY INSPECTED THE PRODUCT. And why is that?

It's apparently been going on for a long time and no one has caught onto it until now.

This was what I was pointing towards as well. I'm no Fender fanboy, and this is the only Gretsch I own. I'm certainly not defending them. But it seems to me they probably got caught caught with their pants down on it. I can't recall any other Fender product I've ever owned that was this off. I understand marketing and all. My Starcaster guitar (another Chinese Fender - another good neck) has "Wide-Range Humbuckers". They're neither CuNiFe nor pole magnets. I knew that going in and have Creameries now. But it was a humbucker. I've never tested any of the woods so who knows on that front.

As far as the QC/proper spec debate goes, I think they go hand-in-hand. To me QC is more like my second 2220. Burned up wires and a severed pickup wire from bad soldering. Am I surprised something like that slipped through on a 300 bass. Not really. They make lots of them. They're not going to inspect them all. Someone on TB I once read described the relationship of price point and QC. Basically what you are paying for is tighter QC. 5 custom shops made a year of a model for 5,000, they will probably all be perfect. They make thousands a year of a 300 bass (with contracted cheap labor), there will be klunkers. With a scale between. That said, having the right pickup to match the description, while maybe not part of QC normally, I would say is just as important. Especially when your contracting it out (specifically for cheaper labor to reduce cost). It's Gretsch's responsibility to the purchaser that whatever they're putting their name on is what they say it is. Fender has a responsibility to Gretsch to deliver said product to meet that. Somewhere there someone failed to do so. Even if it is a cheap instrument, if you say it has humbuckers, it should have humbuckers (even if they're just cheap POS ones - had a few of those in the past). If they made a single coil model as well with the same size and one accidentally made it over, that's QC to me. If the whole lines wrong, that's more. Neither are questionable fly-by-night companies. I've seen those claim things that turned out different like this. Humbuckers that weren't.

Do I think anything will come of it? Who knows. If it was the factory in China taking it upon themselves, I would assume Fender would point to a contract stipulating it be a humbucker in the design. At that point, it would be dealing with a factory in China, and Fender and Gretsch would likely move on with just a slight black eye (do I think sales of high end strats and jazz's will be hurt - not really). Maybe moving forward then the pickups get corrected. The biggest thing I could see happening would be Fender moving production to their setup in Indonesia (is that Cort who does that for them?). Sterling did that, with at least their Ray4's, a few years back.

 

[Gostdevil]

Well let me add this as well in the QC stuff. To me, QC is doing it right but doing a bad job. Warped neck. Bad frets. Bad soldering. The wrong pickup up in a whole line that's more like false-advertising. If your website says it has humbuckers (a common industry term with a generally accepted meaning) and they are in fact not, that opens you up. Gretsch could probably point to a contract with Fender, who in turn probably could point to their own with the factory. May a judge in a class-action situation looks at that and goes "Did you ever bother to make sure the product you were advertising was in fact right?". If anything came out of something like that, all I could see happening would be anyone with one could apply to get 30 bucks or something (alah the EA sports class action outcome). It's not a safety issue. I don't see a recall or retrofit.

 

[Telecaster88]

This was what I was pointing towards as well. I'm no Fender fanboy, and this is the only Gretsch I own. I'm certainly not defending them. But it seems to me they probably got caught caught with their pants down on it. I can't recall any other Fender product I've ever owned that was this off. I understand marketing and all. My Starcaster guitar (another Chinese Fender - another good neck) has "Wide-Range Humbuckers". They're neither CuNiFe nor pole magnets. I knew that going in and have Creameries now. But it was a humbucker. I've never tested any of the woods so who knows on that front.

As far as the QC/proper spec debate goes, I think they go hand-in-hand. To me QC is more like my second 2220. Burned up wires and a severed pickup wire from bad soldering. Am I surprised something like that slipped through on a 300 bass. Not really. They make lots of them. They're not going to inspect them all. Someone on TB I once read described the relationship of price point and QC. Basically what you are paying for is tighter QC. 5 custom shops made a year of a model for 5,000, they will probably all be perfect. They make thousands a year of a 300 bass (with contracted cheap labor), there will be klunkers. With a scale between. That said, having the right pickup to match the description, while maybe not part of QC normally, I would say is just as important. Especially when your contracting it out (specifically for cheaper labor to reduce cost). It's Gretsch's responsibility to the purchaser that whatever they're putting their name on is what they say it is. Fender has a responsibility to Gretsch to deliver said product to meet that. Somewhere there someone failed to do so. Even if it is a cheap instrument, if you say it has humbuckers, it should have humbuckers (even if they're just cheap POS ones - had a few of those in the past). If they made a single coil model as well with the same size and one accidentally made it over, that's QC to me. If the whole lines wrong, that's more. Neither are questionable fly-by-night companies. I've seen those claim things that turned out different like this. Humbuckers that weren't.

Do I think anything will come of it? Who knows. If it was the factory in China taking it upon themselves, I would assume Fender would point to a contract stipulating it be a humbucker in the design. At that point, it would be dealing with a factory in China, and Fender and Gretsch would likely move on with just a slight black eye (do I think sales of high end strats and jazz's will be hurt - not really). Maybe moving forward then the pickups get corrected. The biggest thing I could see happening would be Fender moving production to their setup in Indonesia (is that Cort who does that for them?). Sterling did that, with at least their Ray4's, a few years back.

Great post! I'm also in the middle on this somewhat. The G2220 was my first bass, and I love it so much. Sounds exactly like I'd want it to. I play quietly at home, running DI into my Focusrite, and I've never had problems with noise. That said, of course, it's obvious many people using the instrument beyond my limited use DO have problems with noise.

I bought the bass based on online reviews and demos, and plugging it in in my local shop. I loved what I heard. If it had been marketed as single coil, I would have still loved what I heard and purchased the instrument. Again, that doesn't discount the fact that many purchased it at least in part because they expected mini-humbuckers. They were misled. I was too, technically, but it doesn't impact me that much personally. I'm still super happy with my purchase.

One other note, is that in this world of online specs, many manufacturers' websites are notoriously incorrect/out of date. I spent a month trying to figure out the specs on my Epiphone ES 339, and even calls to Epiphone never fully answered my questions. Not saying it's right. It's not. But I'm not really surprised that the online specs for a guitar have been misrepresented for a decade.

I'm really curious to see how this plays out. I have a feeling it will be radio silence and then the specs are quietly changed one day, and/or F/G makes a statement that they were misled by the pickup manufacturer and apologizes and then moves on.

 

[Old_Noob]

One other note, is that in this world of online specs, many manufacturers' websites are notoriously incorrect/out of date. .

There is a distinct difference between being out of date as to the TYPE of a specific component is being used versus WHETHER a specific component is being used. There is a different between getting the brand name of tuners wrong versus saying they are locking tuners when they aren't. There is a difference between not being up to date on the TYPE of humbuckers being used versus WHETHER it even has humbuckers.

 

[ClusterFlux]

Well let me add this as well in the QC stuff. To me, QC is doing it right but doing a bad job. Warped neck. Bad frets. Bad soldering. The wrong pickup up in a whole line that's more like false-advertising....

"Quality control" isn't just about making sure nothing is broken. It's also about making sure the correct parts were used in manufacturing.

The various parts -- pickups, tuners, pots etc -- are sourced from different subcontractors. Either the sub sent the wrong part and no one noticed; or, whatever computer system they're using to tell the workers what components to install in a specific instrument listed the wrong part. This kind of thing happens all the time, resulting in minor discrepancies between what's listed on the website and what ends up in the actual product.

The idea that anyone would deliberately choose the wrong part, in just one cheap bass model, just doesn't make sense. I mean, really, what's the goal? Save $5 per bass? C'mon.

 

[Gostdevil]

"Quality control" isn't just about making sure nothing is broken. It's also about making sure the correct parts were used in manufacturing.

The various parts -- pickups, tuners, pots etc -- are sourced from different subcontractors. Either the sub sent the wrong part and no one noticed; or, whatever computer system they're using to tell the workers what components to install in a specific instrument listed the wrong part. This kind of thing happens all the time, resulting in minor discrepancies between what's listed on the website and what ends up in the actual product.

The idea that anyone would deliberately choose the wrong part, in just one cheap bass model, just doesn't make sense. I mean, really, what's the goal? Save $5 per bass? C'mon.

Just to be clear, I wasn't implying it was deliberately done (especially on the F/G side of things). Would I be floored to find out shoulders were shrugged at a cheap labor location (by said location, not the contracting company) and a pickup was swapped out for supply chain reasons or just to save a buck? Or that their own suppliers of the pickup did the same (if they outsource that)? Not really. I guess I'm kind of jaded that way.

Like I said, QC and proper parts/build go hand-in-hand (especially if you're not building it yourself). And like you said, they could very easily both be encapsulated just by QC. I guess to me it would me more QC-ish(?) if it was an run of them like that. Maybe months' or a year's worth. But years and years kind of points back to the neglect of anyone checking. Fender, Gretsch, nor the factory (whichever level the issue originated at) caught it in years. Mine's at least 5-6 years old.

 

[B-Mac]

We're going on two weeks since the initial inquiry without a peep.

I had a peep yesterday

[This invalid link has been removed]

 

[4StringMadness]

No, I'm not conflating. I've mentioned three times now that I'm talking about only one of those aspects.

Everyone else here seems to want me to be conflating, or wishes to argue with me as though I am conflating, but I am not the one doing that, and I have zero interest in arguing about it

Have a lovely day everyone. It's my birthday and I'd rather not spend it on this thread explaining the same thing over and over to people who don't want to take an extra moment to parse my actual point. Stop quoting me; I'm turning off alerts, so I won't know anyway.

Enjoy your day, and I'll see you all on other threads

Happy Birthday

 

[mcgreivey]

To me, in this context, QC has two loci, since the manufacture is subcontracted: the manufacturer should be checking that they're sending the out the right thing, in accordance with specifications, and the Fender/Gretsch should be checking that they're receiving items as specified, so they're satisfied they're sending the correct, promised items to their customers.

The manufacturer's check isn't our business; that's between the manufacturer and Fender/Gretsch. The second is what we and Fender/Gretsch should care about. The Gretsch name is on the product, and that means we should hold Gretsch responsible. That's why brand names exist. If you put your name on something, it should mean that it's as good as if you'd made it yourself. You can't pass the buck, and maintain your brand credibility.