Having trouble getting a good drive tone ampless

[jacoby75]

Hey guys,

I have struggled for months . . . probably a couple of years now . . . trying to get a good tone in my ampless pedalboard setup when it comes to using drive pedals to give it just a little grit. I have tried I don't know how many different drive pedals and preamps/speaker sims (including the Tech 21 stuff, Aguilar Tone Hammer, Digitech CabDryVR, ADA GCS-2, and Palmer PDI-09, maybe more) in a search for something that doesn't sound like bee farts, but it's been challenging. I usually can only get the "drive" or "gain" knobs up on any dirt pedal to about 9:00, of course adjusting the volume level accordingly, no mater what the pedal, before it sounds like electronic mush. Like overdriving a solid-state amp. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Perhaps you can shed some light on the struggle.

2 keys that I HAVE found thus far:
The drive or gain has to stay below 9:00
There has to be a blend knob to blend in some clean.

I have had the most success thus far with the Darkglass VMT, but even that sounds like fart when the drive gets above 9-10:00.

Here's my current setup:
Lakland Joe Osborn 5 (passive jazz) > TC Spectracomp > TC Sub 'n Up > Boss TU-3 > Darkglass VMT > MXR M80 preamp/distortion > Digitech Luxe Chorus > with some variety in modulation effects at times > ending currently in a Tech 21 VT Bass DI. All run with Monster bass cables and powered by an MXR Iso Supply.

I always run all of my pedals so that they are unity gain. Meaning the overall level of my signal is the same whether the pedal or preamp is on or off.

For the Tech 21 VTDI, even when I use it by itself, I can't get its drive knob past 9:00 before it also sounds awful. I typically run it with the drive around 9:00, maybe even 8:00, and the level about 3:00 to get unity gain. But if I push any drive pedal into it, it will make the VT Bass fart out quickly. (Side note, does the VT Bass need to be run at a higher voltage to get more headroom?)

I run that to an M-Audio USB interface, using it as a standalone preamp, monitoring with decent-quality over-ear headphones (but have had the same results with other headphones and in-ear monitors.) I can control the gain on the M-Audio, and if I turn it up too far, THAT starts to fart out, and it sounds fairly similar to the farting I'm experiencing in the pedalboard itself. But even if I turn the trim really low so it's barely audible, you can still tell through the faint signal that something in the pedalboard sounds like fart. It makes no different whether I connect the VT Bass DI to the interface via XLR (and lower the USB gain) or via 1/4" (and raise the USB's gain). The end result is the same.

I also tried lowering the volume on some of the stuff on my board, but then to get the gain loud enough to where it sounds like a drive again, say on a distortion pedal, it just farts out.

I feel like I must be clipping something along the chain, because that's what it sounds like. Electronic clipping. Yet not quite as harsh as when I clip the actual MAudio USB interface. But I am out of ideas. Maybe the USB preamp is bad? Or maybe I need a higher quality pair of headphones with better frequency response? The sounds I'm getting sound nothing like what I'm expecting based on what I'm hearing online. And I know that it's not going to sound exactly like the demos for a lot of reasons, but primarily because they're playing through amps which are mic'd, and I'm playing through the Sansamp. But I thought that was the point of the Sansamp, that it mimicd an amp. I order a pedal that I see a video of, plug it into my set up and within 3 minutes go, "This sounds nothing like the video I just watched."

This is the only video I have ever seen online where the guy's drive pedal actually sounds like what I'm experiencing. It's not EXACT, but it's close. You might notice that his drive (to my ears) on the Fulldrive sounds a bit more like clipping out than any sort of resemblance of amp-like breakup.

The drive sound starts around the 2:50 mark.



Any thoughts on what I might be doing wrong?

I do have a DSM Omnicabsim deluxe coming once the latest batch ships. Because I have yet to hear a bad drive tone come out of that box. And I'm hoping the standalone headphone amp of the OCSD might sound better than the MAudio preamp, and maybe that will let me know if THAT was the problem.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Krisfield]

I have an ampless/DI setup that runs into a Clarett 2Pre with a thunderbolt connection to an Apple MacBook. I have cheap and expensive pairs of monitors and headphones. Pretty happy with that sort of setup. The turning point in my journey was getting a Tech 21 Q/Strip as my DI, which has HPF/LPF settings. HPF/LPF has been a bit of a revelation for me.

 

[jacoby75]

I have an ampless/DI setup that runs into a Clarett 2Pre with a thunderbolt connection to an Apple MacBook. I have cheap and expensive pairs of monitors and headphones. Pretty happy with that sort of setup. The turning point in my journey was getting a Tech 21 Q/Strip as my DI, which has HPF/LPF settings. HPF/LPF has been a bit of a revelation for me.

I thought about adding a Broughton HPF/LPF to the mix to see if that makes a difference. Perhaps I’m overloading certain frequencies. I also considered actually running the pre into a computer to see if it sounds any different than what I’m hearing in the unit as a stand alone unit. Thanks.

 

[Sunset Shalom]

Any thoughts on what I might be doing wrong?

I only skimmed your post as it's long, but have you tried isolating everything in your chain to see where the clipping comes from?

Also, when you increase the gain do you roll off the volume for an even level?

Or maybe I need a higher quality pair of headphones with better frequency response?

Have you tried listening to recordings through monitors or anything other then headphones?

 

[Krisfield]

My sound is quite complex, using overdrive and distortion. Very pleased with how the HPF/LPF effect has on overdrive and distortion.

I thought about adding a Broughton HPF/LPF to the mix to see if that makes a difference. Perhaps I’m overloading certain frequencies. I also considered actually running the pre into a computer to see if it sounds any different than what I’m hearing in the unit as a stand alone unit. Thanks.

 

[Tom Bomb]

Denuded of the greenery, otherwise a very nice highlight,

I’ve always got a Broughton HPF patched into the effects loop. Picked up that tip off an SWR forum right about the time I was ready to toss the head. Made all the difference.

I’ve got everything below about 60 Hz dialed out now. And it’s a whole new beast with one of those.

Adding a HPF is the fix. With a HPF the amp runs much cooler and the sound gets pristine. Bye-bye fried cabs too.

The turning point in my journey was getting a Tech 21 Q/Strip as my DI, which has HPF/LPF settings. HPF/LPF has been a bit of a revelation for me.

Perhaps there's a filter out there for taking care of all this variegation too

 

[Krisfield]

Variegation? I had to google that. Learn something new everyday.

Denuded of the greenery, otherwise a very nice highlight,




Perhaps there's a filter out there for taking care of all this variegation too

 

[jacoby75]

Thank you for taking the time to offer some feedback folks. A few responses:

I only skimmed your post as it's long, but have you tried isolating everything in your chain to see where the clipping comes from?

Not since putting the whole pedalboard together, but I sure as heck will now, and that's a good idea. Later tonight I'm going to start with just the Sansamp and trying to get a good drive sound out of that, and we'll go from there. But IIRC, when I first got the Sansamp I did do that and it did not end well, which leads me to believe the problem is elsewhere or it's a combination of things.

Also, when you increase the gain do you roll off the volume for an even level?

Yes I do. If I turn the gain up on, say, the Darkglass VMT, I turn the level down to compensate, so that the pedal is still at unity gain to my clean signal when/if I kick it on.

Have you tried listening to recordings through monitors or anything other then headphones?

I have not. I'm not actually making recordings at this point. Just using the MAudio USB interface as a headphone amp, essentially. I haven't connected it to a computer in about 15yrs.

 

[jacoby75]

Denuded of the greenery, otherwise a very nice highlight,
Perhaps there's a filter out there for taking care of all this variegation too

I am hoping when I get the DSM OCSD it may solve many of my problems, as it (as I understand it) is essentially an incredibly tweakable HPF/LPF, among other things. Only one way to find out. But I probably won't have it for another month or so.

I don't have the technical knowledge to back this theory up, so it could be nonsense. But perhaps in engaging overdrive pedals I'm clipping out the low end below the usable frequency(ies) and it's making my setup "fart out" the same way a speaker cab would, were I using one. Maybe the combination is making either the USB preamp or the headphones fart out in an ultralow or high frequency or something. Something the proper filter - or a new USB interface - might fix. But I'm seeing others online using the same pedals and getting amazing sounds without a filter engaged. But again most of them are playing them through amps.

 

[jacoby75]

Today's episode is brought to you by the word . . . Variegation.

 

[Tom Bomb]

I'm no going to weigh in — still collecting my thoughts but this subject deserves attention. No mistake there. An analogy that comes to mind: If you have powder and shot, in two equal measures, but one gets fired from a modern gun and the other gets fired from a blunderbuss, it would be safer to be standing in front of the blunderbuss, if that were a sane option Obversely, if you want better focus, go the other way.

The tech marches on. We tag along. Thanks for the thread.

 

[jacoby75]

I'm no going to weigh in — still collecting my thoughts but this subject deserves attention. No mistake there. An analogy that comes to mind: If you have powder and shot, in two equal measures, but one gets fired from a modern gun and the other gets fired from a blunderbuss, it would be safer to be standing in front of the blunderbuss, if that were a sane option Obversely, if you want better focus, go the other way.

The tech marches on. We tag along. Thanks for the thread.

Wait. Did you just call me a blunderbuss? LOL. Oh, I get it. My preamp is the blunderbuss? Wait. Or am I the bullet? My bass is the bullet? If a bullet fired from a blunderbuss leaves LA at 10:00am headed east, and a bullet from a .223 leaves New York headed west at the same time, how much does a bowling ball weigh on the moon? Ponder that one for a minute.

 

[Tom Bomb]

Wait. Did you just call me a blunderbuss? LOL. Oh, I get it. My preamp is the blunderbuss? Wait. Or am I the bullet? My bass is the bullet? If a bullet fired from a blunderbuss leaves LA at 10:00am headed east, and a bullet from a .223 leaves New York headed west at the same time, how much does a bowling ball weigh on the moon? Ponder that one for a minute.

Ha ha Sorry if I set you off. That was never my intention.

 

[jacoby75]

Metaphors make my head hurt.

 

[Tom Bomb]

Now, there's a metaphor I can relate to.

 

[Fuzzbass]

I am hoping when I get the DSM OCSD it may solve many of my problems, as it (as I understand it) is essentially an incredibly tweakable HPF/LPF, among other things. Only one way to find out. But I probably won't have it for another month or so.

I don't have the technical knowledge to back this theory up, so it could be nonsense. But perhaps in engaging overdrive pedals I'm clipping out the low end below the usable frequency(ies) and it's making my setup "fart out" the same way a speaker cab would, were I using one. Maybe the combination is making either the USB preamp or the headphones fart out in an ultralow or high frequency or something. Something the proper filter - or a new USB interface - might fix. But I'm seeing others online using the same pedals and getting amazing sounds without a filter engaged. But again most of them are playing them through amps.

I was going to suggest a cab sim, and you've chosen an excellent one.

Cab sims make all the difference in the world, even more than HPF/LPF, when it comes to running direct... especially with OD/FX. Example: at one of my bands' rehearsals, the guitarist is now plugging his board directly into the PA rather than set up his Mesa Rectifier rig. This is a great thing: easier load-in for him, and it keeps him from getting TOO DAMN LOUD in the small room. The downside is that he sounds like crap: the "buzzy bees" effect is prominent because of the tweeters in the monitors, and there's too much low end as well.

He really should get a little combo amp to keep at rehearsal (as I do), but he's having financial issues and can't afford a combo, or a cab sim for that matter.

 

[jacoby75]

I was going to suggest a cab sim, and you've chosen an excellent one.

Cab sims make all the difference in the world, even more than HPF/LPF, when it comes to running direct... especially with OD/FX. Example: at one of my bands' rehearsals, the guitarist is now plugging his board directly into the PA rather than set up his Mesa Rectifier rig. This is a great thing: easier load-in for him, and it keeps him from getting TOO DAMN LOUD in the small room. The downside is that he sounds like crap: the "buzzy bees" effect is prominent because of the tweeters in the monitors, and there's too much low end as well.

He really should get a little combo amp to keep at rehearsal (as I do), but he's having financial issues and can't afford a combo, or a cab sim for that matter.

Indeed. At this one church I used to play at the guitarist plugged his effects straight into a direct box with no cab sim. It sounded awful. And it killed me because he was a great guitarist. I got the VT Bass DI for that purpose, since I am primarily ampless these days, and it makes an obvious difference when I use overdrives without it. The drives sound even worse. But there's still something else going on that I can't identify. The clipping aspect when I try to get higher gains that I need to weed out. We'll see how the OCSD does. Thanks.

 

[jacoby75]

Or perhaps I need a USB interface or a headphone amp with higher headroom.

 

[CRich0205]

You’re using the audio interface as an amp with no computer or anything hooked up correct?

Does your VTDI have the cab sim control on it? Mine is an older generation one and you can’t disable the cab sim. If you are overloading your interface that could definitely clip and sound bad. I use a lexicon alpha for silent practice through Logic X and I can overdrive it easily with the VTDI.

Are your compressor settings pretty squashed or barely noticeable? If you have comp, then drive which will
Also compress your tone and the VTDI will also compress your tone you may just be squashing it way too much.

 

[jacoby75]

You’re using the audio interface as an amp with no computer or anything hooked up correct?

Yes.

Does your VTDI have the cab sim control on it? Mine is an older generation one and you can’t disable the cab sim. If you are overloading your interface that could definitely clip and sound bad. I use a lexicon alpha for silent practice through Logic X and I can overdrive it easily with the VTDI.

Yes, and I leave the cab sim engaged. When I disengage the cab sim, the drive pedals sound even fizzier.

Are your compressor settings pretty squashed or barely noticeable? If you have comp, then drive which will also compress your tone and the VTDI will also compress your tone you may just be squashing it way too much.

Perhaps. But the compressor is a recent addition. (At least THIS compressor is a recent addition.) And I have it at a fairly subtle setting just to limit peaks and even out the playing. I have had similar experiences with drives direct prior to using this compressor. But I see your point. Maybe the triple squish is killing the tone. It's something to experiment with. Thanks.