Having trouble getting a good drive tone ampless

[Wasnex]

My head just exploded.

Not the first time I have heard that . I believe you have everything you need to experiment with parallel processing. You should be able to use your TU-3 to split your signal into two channels and then use your M-Audio USB interface to combine the processed signals back to mono.

Try connecting your various pedals in a bunch of different ways and using available EQ to shape the way the distortion develops. Pre effect EQ has a very different impact than post effect EQ...try it both ways so you learn the difference.

 

[jmone]

I usually take pictures of my pedals before shows and this is what I was using last time.

*Ignore the slight treble boost - I usually keep the pedal flat.

I find this pedal is very versatile - can definitely get pretty crazy if need be. I just like a bit of subtly and to add a bit more harmonics to cut through.

 

[jacoby75]

FWIW, I can get a relatively convincing "subtle, light grit" (subjective terms, I know) running direct because it does not take much drive to get there. But I'd love to be able to get more out of my pedals before hopping aboard the train to Fartsville, Population 1.

I'm going to mess with just the Sansamp tonight. If I can't get THAT alone sounding good with some drive, I'm going to conclude the issue is in the interface/headphones not being able to handle it, and will await the arrival of the OCSD to see to what extent, if any, it rectifies my concerns.

 

[MDBass]

If you want "just a little grit," 9 o'clock is where it's at on many pedals. Use your ears not your eyes.

Perhaps you need parallel signal paths and the ability to separately EQ, compress, and blend clean and dirty signals. Try running an EQ before your OD pedals so you can pick which frequencies overload. A "little grit" suggests upper mids to me. Distortion results in compression, so you may need to use a bit of compression on the clean signal to help it blend with the distorted signal. If you want higher gain, try stacking multiple pedals setup for low gain instead of one pedal setup for high gain. Running different ODs in parallel can also produce interesting results.

All good advice.

A blend control IS a parallel signal path

 

[Timmy-Watts]

DG Alpha Omega Ultra. Replace all your preamps with that. You probably won't even need the HPF/LPF. I think it sounds amazing, and I plan on getting one. My only other pedal will be my always on Diamond Compressor.

 

[Chrisk-K]

The OP’s problem is the ancient USB interface.

 

[Fiset]

I'm definitely no sound engineer but I'll tell you how I'm set up at home for headphone jamming. I use this guy (got one on sale at GC for like $60 bucks):

I have quite a few pedals on my board which include dirt, preamps, a compressor and a few other things. I sometimes run my board directly into Input 1 on the little mixer. I run a drum pedal (a Digitech Sdrum) into Input 3 and I run an Aux line into Input 4 so I can use my phone or tablet to get MP3's into my headphones along with my bass. My headphones are plugged into the mixer and then I adjust all the levels to create a decent sounding mix in my headphones. I can tell you that I don't always love the way my board sounds when I run it directly into the mixer so I sometimes run my board into my amp and then run the XLR out from my amp into Input 1 on the mixer. My amp definitely helps give my bass signal an added heft and it helps tame some of the brightness and fizziness from my dirt pedals. It also helps to have the additional EQ on the mixer. Lastly, I use quality headphones which are maybe the biggest help in getting good tone.

 

[Sunset Shalom]

Today's episode is brought to you by the word . . . Variegation.

Off topic but I can't see the word variegated without thinking of these amazing cacti:

Variegation is a rare mutation in plants where they grow partially without chlorophyll I believe resulting in lighter colored areas. Even more rare are full albino plants, they lack any chlorophyll and can't survive on their own. So you basically have to graft them as soon as they sprout or they will die... Cactus sprouts are ridiculously small so it's no easy task, which is why albinos are still one of the rarest mutations by far. Anyways sorry for getting off topic, I love cacti drool

 

[jacoby75]

I'm definitely no sound engineer but I'll tell you how I'm set up at home for headphone jamming. I use this guy (got one on sale at GC for like $60 bucks):

View attachment 2971989
I have quite a few pedals on my board which include dirt, preamps, a compressor and a few other things. I sometimes run my board directly into Input 1 on the little mixer. I run a drum pedal (a Digitech Sdrum) into Input 3 and I run an Aux line into Input 4 so I can use my phone or tablet to get MP3's into my headphones along with my bass. My headphones are plugged into the mixer and then I adjust all the levels to create a decent sounding mix in my headphones. I can tell you that I don't always love the way my board sounds when I run it directly into the mixer so I sometimes run my board into my amp and then run the XLR out from my amp into Input 1 on the mixer. My amp definitely helps give my bass signal an added heft and it helps tame some of the brightness and fizziness from my dirt pedals. It also helps to have the additional EQ on the mixer. Lastly, I use quality headphones which are maybe the biggest help in getting good tone.

I have considered getting an actual small mixer so I could get an idea what it would (conceivably) sound like coming out of an actual mixer. Realizing that the sound out of a PA would still be a little different than that coming out of headphones, but it should get me in the ballpark. And I like the idea of a drum machine to practice with.

 

[jacoby75]

But I think a headphone amp would make more sense, because that could be mounted under the board and go with me.

 

[jacoby75]

But I’m hoping the OCSD headphone amp works out and actually gives me an accurate representation of what comes out of the DI. And it isn’t fart city.

 

[AlexanderB]

Hey guys,

I have struggled for months . . . probably a couple of years now . . . trying to get a good tone in my ampless pedalboard setup when it comes to using drive pedals to give it just a little grit. I have tried I don't know how many different drive pedals and preamps/speaker sims (including the Tech 21 stuff, Aguilar Tone Hammer, Digitech CabDryVR, ADA GCS-2, and Palmer PDI-09, maybe more) in a search for something that doesn't sound like bee farts, but it's been challenging. I usually can only get the "drive" or "gain" knobs up on any dirt pedal to about 9:00, of course adjusting the volume level accordingly, no mater what the pedal, before it sounds like electronic mush. Like overdriving a solid-state amp. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Perhaps you can shed some light on the struggle.

2 keys that I HAVE found thus far:
The drive or gain has to stay below 9:00
There has to be a blend knob to blend in some clean.

I have had the most success thus far with the Darkglass VMT, but even that sounds like fart when the drive gets above 9-10:00.

Here's my current setup:
Lakland Joe Osborn 5 (passive jazz) > TC Spectracomp > TC Sub 'n Up > Boss TU-3 > Darkglass VMT > MXR M80 preamp/distortion > Digitech Luxe Chorus > with some variety in modulation effects at times > ending currently in a Tech 21 VT Bass DI. All run with Monster bass cables and powered by an MXR Iso Supply.

I always run all of my pedals so that they are unity gain. Meaning the overall level of my signal is the same whether the pedal or preamp is on or off.

For the Tech 21 VTDI, even when I use it by itself, I can't get its drive knob past 9:00 before it also sounds awful. I typically run it with the drive around 9:00, maybe even 8:00, and the level about 3:00 to get unity gain. But if I push any drive pedal into it, it will make the VT Bass fart out quickly. (Side note, does the VT Bass need to be run at a higher voltage to get more headroom?)

I run that to an M-Audio USB interface, using it as a standalone preamp, monitoring with decent-quality over-ear headphones (but have had the same results with other headphones and in-ear monitors.) I can control the gain on the M-Audio, and if I turn it up too far, THAT starts to fart out, and it sounds fairly similar to the farting I'm experiencing in the pedalboard itself. But even if I turn the trim really low so it's barely audible, you can still tell through the faint signal that something in the pedalboard sounds like fart. It makes no different whether I connect the VT Bass DI to the interface via XLR (and lower the USB gain) or via 1/4" (and raise the USB's gain). The end result is the same.

I also tried lowering the volume on some of the stuff on my board, but then to get the gain loud enough to where it sounds like a drive again, say on a distortion pedal, it just farts out.

I feel like I must be clipping something along the chain, because that's what it sounds like. Electronic clipping. Yet not quite as harsh as when I clip the actual MAudio USB interface. But I am out of ideas. Maybe the USB preamp is bad? Or maybe I need a higher quality pair of headphones with better frequency response? The sounds I'm getting sound nothing like what I'm expecting based on what I'm hearing online. And I know that it's not going to sound exactly like the demos for a lot of reasons, but primarily because they're playing through amps which are mic'd, and I'm playing through the Sansamp. But I thought that was the point of the Sansamp, that it mimicd an amp. I order a pedal that I see a video of, plug it into my set up and within 3 minutes go, "This sounds nothing like the video I just watched."

This is the only video I have ever seen online where the guy's drive pedal actually sounds like what I'm experiencing. It's not EXACT, but it's close. You might notice that his drive (to my ears) on the Fulldrive sounds a bit more like clipping out than any sort of resemblance of amp-like breakup.

The drive sound starts around the 2:50 mark.



Any thoughts on what I might be doing wrong?

I do have a DSM Omnicabsim deluxe coming once the latest batch ships. Because I have yet to hear a bad drive tone come out of that box. And I'm hoping the standalone headphone amp of the OCSD might sound better than the MAudio preamp, and maybe that will let me know if THAT was the problem.

Thank you in advance.

I did a similar "venture" after over 15 years of playing "clean only", even in rock bands and on recordings. Changing bands made my look at pedals and find out what I wanted. I got many tips from TB members, too!

My thoughts: I would start by reducing your fairly long signal chain to bass-pedal-amp(mixer/interface).
Any OD relies on the input signal dynamics for both tone and "downstream" dynamics. So putting your compressor upstream is a big no-no in my book! It will tend to smooth out the big low end rumble quality as well as the upper mid crunch, ending up with a flat, buzzy/fuzzy tone!

In the same line, if anything goes upstream, it would be a good eq - and an open mind to try everything!
I ended up with a gen1 VT bass, and there is a reason for its huge eq range. Cutting out loads of mids and then crank up the drive will re-populate with new mid range, harmonics from overdriven low range. Then play around with the character to go from dull and "farty" to bright and ringing.

Final note (regarding blending). I have mixed feelings about this. The settings on the VT bass might be leading you to "wild" and extreme places. "Will this work in a band?"
It might be tempting to go for a "milder" pedal that always keep a base of clean signal and adds the OD on top. However, such pedals might be problematic, as if it keeps too much clean mixed in, your OD will NOT be heard in the mix!
Instead of aggressive OD waves cresting on the open sea of bass frequencues, it will be a frustrated foam of fuzz, riding the slow sine waves of fundamentals. Cranking the gain on that pedal will only yield MORE foam, not "taller, angrier waves".

 

[jacoby75]

I did a similar "venture" after over 15 years of playing "clean only", even in rock bands and on recordings. Changing bands made my look at pedals and find out what I wanted. I got many tips from TB members, too!

My thoughts: I would start by reducing your fairly long signal chain to bass-pedal-amp(mixer/interface).
Any OD relies on the input signal dynamics for both tone and "downstream" dynamics. So putting your compressor upstream is a big no-no in my book! It will tend to smooth out the big low end rumble quality as well as the upper mid crunch, ending up with a flat, buzzy/fuzzy tone!

There's a lot to digest here, thanks. I will say I am from the school of putting the compressor first in line, because that's what I read was best. That way the compressor got the purest signal to which to apply its magic. And putting it before drive pedals makes the signal hit the drive pedals more consistently. But I can see your point. I will try the compressor after the drive pedals and see what a difference it makes. I know the drive pedals will be more touch-sensitive and responsive if I put the compressor after them.

 

[AlexanderB]

There's a lot to digest here, thanks. I will say I am from the school of putting the compressor first in line, because that's what I read was best. That way the compressor got the purest signal to which to apply its magic. And putting it before drive pedals makes the signal hit the drive pedals more consistently. But I can see your point. I will try the compressor after the drive pedals and see what a difference it makes. I know the drive pedals will be more touch-sensitive and responsive if I put the compressor after them.

The OD will in a way act as a compressor. Once the input rises, it will break off the energy peaks and spread them out as harmonics across the higher octaves.

Compressor first will flatten the sound and contribute to a flatter/fartier, "always on" buzz that remains fairly unresponsive to your playing dynamics.

 

[ktedrow]

Could the input to your distortion box be too hot? Try reducing volume out of the bass, or out of the first stage in your signal chain.

 

[Beheroth]

use an IR loader for cab sim not those built in ones

 

[jacoby75]

Could the input to your distortion box be too hot? Try reducing volume out of the bass, or out of the first stage in your signal chain.

That is something I considered, thanks. At one point, I tried cutting the volume from my bass before running to the VMT. But then I just have to turn the gain of the VMT up that much more to get any kind of gain out of it, and the end result winds up being the same.

I have also tried using the output pad on the VT bass DI running it to my USB preamp, to make sure I’m not overloading the preamp (though it does have a “clip” indicator light and it’s obvious when I clip THAT because it’s a super harsh buzz) but then I have to up the gain on the interface to get any kind of signal, and wind up back in the same situation. It’s six of one, half dozen of the other.

To try to eliminate my headphones from being the problem, I turned the headphone output way down on the interface, but I can still hear the lousy-sounding distortion/overdrive exactly the same. Just really quietly. So I don’t think I’m clipping the headphones. I also tried my Sony studio monitor headphones with the same result.

use an IR loader for cab sim not those built in ones

I have contemplated trying a Mooer Radar. Not much in the way of demos or sound samples available, though. And I typically prefer actual knobs I can tweak as opposed to menus to scroll through or pedals I have to plug into the computer. I recently tried a Digitech CabDryVR, which I liked quite a bit. I could get a pretty good drive tone dialed in by using the 4x10 sim and making it fairly dark. But then when I bypassed the drive pedal(s) I wasn’t happy with the clean tone with the VR engaged. I may need to pull it out and try again. I was running if after the VTDI, disengaging the VT’s speaker sim and using another direct box, because that’s the way I thought it sounded best. But maybe I’ll try running it before and disengage it for the cleans, and renegade the VT speaker sim.

Since I WAS able to get a passable drive sound using the CabDryVR, I was hoping the OCSD would be the ultimate solution. But it’s going to be a while before I get it.

 

[jacoby75]

Last night I did bypass everything and just run the VTDI straight to the interface. On a side note, I forgot how strong my signal could be without all of those pedals in the way. I’m tempted to get rid of them all . . . . . Nah.

I messed with different settings I was seeing online, including stuff from the sample settings. Like this video:



But what I’m getting does not much resemble that. Especially in terms of drivey tones. (While acknowledging I’m playing a very different bass).

I’m left to conclude (or hope) that the issue lies in my interface. I’m hoping once I get the OCSD I will have a very different experience monitoring from the headphone output.

 

[jacoby75]

Update:
Did a little more fiddling this afternoon. Some findings:
1) Gotta keep the drive at 10:00 or below on anything and everything or it gets too hairy too quickly.
2) I think that while I was not per se clipping the input of my USB interface with signal, I think I was overloading the whole setup with low end. I cut ALL three eq’s on the VTDI to 10:00 or so, and the whole thing got more manageable. Not perfect, but better.
3) My USB interface is crap.
4) I expect to have better results with the OCSD, either in conjunction with the VTDI or instead of it.
5) The VTDI still sounds better than the CabDryVR, in my current setup.

 

[jacoby75]

Also, I - on a whim - turned my USB interface over and it has a "stand-alone sample rate" dip switch selector for the rate. It was set to 44.1Hz. I switched it to 96Hz. I'm not sure if it actually made a difference, or if it was purely psychological, but I think it gave me a little more headroom. I still can't get the drive up anywhere near actual drive territory without farting out, but it's all a little better.