I've played in bands like this. To me it's a sign that there are non-musicians in the band. Better musicians are listening to the ensemble sound and consciously or unconsciously make choices about volume and dynamics, tone, tempo and lots of other variables so that they create a great listening and playing experience. I currently play in three different ensembles with the smallest rig I've ever owned and enjoying the music-making more than ever. Of course, the other option is to buy bigger cannons for the arms race, and when that was where I was at, I went with a great tube preamp and cheap clean power (Crown CE2000) into two SWR Goliath III 4x10s. The problem was forever solved, but we it didn't change the fact that the guitarist and drummer didn't have big ears. Charlie Haden said something to the effect that humanists make the best musicians.
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I too would focus on mids and running a good compressor will help. If you can, get your speakers pointing in the general direction of your ears too.
As for preference, I think if it's done right, two guitarists can be fine. Granted if they're both chugging power-chords through Marshall 4x12 rigs, it's overkill. Love em or hate em, I would say a good example of how it's done right, is the Grateful Dead... they had two guitars, keys, multiple singers, multiple drummers, etc. but they played conscientiously and off of each other in a way that they rarely were stepping on each others toes.
As for preference, I think if it's done right, two guitarists can be fine. Granted if they're both chugging power-chords through Marshall 4x12 rigs, it's overkill. Love em or hate em, I would say a good example of how it's done right, is the Grateful Dead... they had two guitars, keys, multiple singers, multiple drummers, etc. but they played conscientiously and off of each other in a way that they rarely were stepping on each others toes.
To paraphrase: "It takes a really good rhythm guitarist to be better than no rhythm guitarist".
Boost your mids or get him to cut his low end accordingly, or even better, both.
Boost your mids or get him to cut his low end accordingly, or even better, both.
Long Term action plan is to leave the world of combos and go for Cabinets and Head world...
In my case this changed my lyfe, since with a 4X10 and a 1X15 I can hear two different bass voices and never some frequencies are bloqued (in some heads you can use the crossover and frequency selector to improve it - this is the case of my SVT4).
OTOH this changed my lyfe too since my backs complaints about this decision.
And lyfe is made of decisions...
In my case this changed my lyfe, since with a 4X10 and a 1X15 I can hear two different bass voices and never some frequencies are bloqued (in some heads you can use the crossover and frequency selector to improve it - this is the case of my SVT4).
OTOH this changed my lyfe too since my backs complaints about this decision.
And lyfe is made of decisions...
I had this struggle with 2 guitarists running 4x 12 's .
It's harder for a bassist to get to that level without sounding like crap .
My advice is use heavy duty PA cab style speakers . If you need a 15 " crossed over with some tens do that . People are hung up on tens . They sound great above 45 HZ . Ten people will tell ten different things . My advice . Get an Ampeg Svt that has a crossover . Get a good 4-10 cab and get JBL 2226 15 " or other quality 15 " into a proper cab . No problems any more .
It's harder for a bassist to get to that level without sounding like crap .
My advice is use heavy duty PA cab style speakers . If you need a 15 " crossed over with some tens do that . People are hung up on tens . They sound great above 45 HZ . Ten people will tell ten different things . My advice . Get an Ampeg Svt that has a crossover . Get a good 4-10 cab and get JBL 2226 15 " or other quality 15 " into a proper cab . No problems any more .
In my experience, it is a rare guitarist who values the overall sound of the band more than he values his own loudness. If you find one who can actually play, never let that player go. A little amplification goes a long way, and few seem to realize it.
The solution to not hearing yourself in a mix isn't automatically to apply more power. It's sort of like the analogy of the frog in a boiling pot.
The solution to not hearing yourself in a mix isn't automatically to apply more power. It's sort of like the analogy of the frog in a boiling pot.
Like most everyone else here, I have been in this situation (and still am). Practice / rehearsal should be done at a "reasonable" level without the need for big stacks and sound. If everyone can't turn down at rehearsal, your live shows will be stupid loud if you are playing small clubs (w/o sound man), and that never goes over well with the owners and patrons. I have avoided approaching certain clubs for gigs just because the band has a "normal" volume setting that won't work for the venue.
For my genre of music I prefer two guitars. One to play leads, one to play the riddim. Once the lead man has played the main lick, he can also shadow the bassline. At that point he's playing the "stuckline". Same thing with keyboards, except one man can handle both parts way better than one man trying to handle both guitar parts.
If you can't hear, your on stage mix is wrong. Plain and simple. If the venue is small, then they have their volume up too much anyways, it's coming back after leaving stage and hitting you in the face.
At most of my shows, if we don't have a sound man I'm normally the one asked to turn down by the venue. The music is drum and bass heavy, but I only play with one drummie who's loud on drums. I need to get a wireless setup so I can check my levels better, but for now I rely on "turn up, turn down". I'll even ask those in the audience for help. If they're happy I'm happy.
If you can't hear, your on stage mix is wrong. Plain and simple. If the venue is small, then they have their volume up too much anyways, it's coming back after leaving stage and hitting you in the face.
At most of my shows, if we don't have a sound man I'm normally the one asked to turn down by the venue. The music is drum and bass heavy, but I only play with one drummie who's loud on drums. I need to get a wireless setup so I can check my levels better, but for now I rely on "turn up, turn down". I'll even ask those in the audience for help. If they're happy I'm happy.
Lots of advice in here. I'll give you mine. Use in ear monitors. You can start wired much cheaper than wireless to save money. Good fitting earbuds can act as earplugs to keep the volume down. If you have a mixer that supports individual IEM mixes, you can have your bass as loud as you want compared to the guitars. It doesn't have the same feel as hearing everything loud, but its better for your ears, you'll probably hear things better and more clearly and might make you play better.
If you only have one monitor mix, there are personal IEM systems that will take a monitor mix and an additional input.. usually your vocals, but there is nothing from stopping you from adding in your bass to have more bass in your IEM mix.
For smaller indoor shows we go ampless ( and we have electronic drums ) so we have a relatively silent stage and I will often only use a preamp pedal. But with your amp rocking behind you even with in ears you'll feel the bass and hear it clearly through IEMs.
Start wired to save money, and if it works for you, go wireless later.
If you only have one monitor mix, there are personal IEM systems that will take a monitor mix and an additional input.. usually your vocals, but there is nothing from stopping you from adding in your bass to have more bass in your IEM mix.
For smaller indoor shows we go ampless ( and we have electronic drums ) so we have a relatively silent stage and I will often only use a preamp pedal. But with your amp rocking behind you even with in ears you'll feel the bass and hear it clearly through IEMs.
Start wired to save money, and if it works for you, go wireless later.
Ask them to turn down, if they don't comply than they don't understand dynamics and how important it is for the whole mix to be balanced, it isn't rocket science but for some reason someone always thinks they have to be the loudest, to me these individuals should not be musicians...
A five piece like this covers everything — drums, bass, keys, electric guitar, acoustic guitar. But I'm in a four-piece. I play lead gui**** and backing vocals, there's a keys player and lead vocalist, and a rhythm guitarist (who also plays keys, the keys is his first choice though), and a guy who controls the drums and effects (he's a DJ too) via laptop and backing vocals. He plays lap steel guitar. There's a scarcity of real drummers here. When I switch to bass, most probably the keys player will solo. There's a real scarcity of bass players too, and I'm not an egoistic guy. I'm definitely a more groovy guy than freestyle.
If someone has listened to Coldplay's Parachutes album, they'd done a pretty well job with the rhythm section. The bass is very distinguished, and the acoustic is very low in the mix.
If someone has listened to Coldplay's Parachutes album, they'd done a pretty well job with the rhythm section. The bass is very distinguished, and the acoustic is very low in the mix.
Yeah I'm sure that'll work. Guitarists are usually good listeners and very compliant to friendly suggestions from bassists.
+100. I put up with this garbage for too long. You have to have people in the band who at least try to listen to something other than themselves. If you're in a band that doesn't care about bass, why be there? They just think they need a bass guitar guy standing up there? See ya.
I used to play in a loud rock band with two guitarists, one of whom played a LOT of chunka-chunka power chords at high volume. One gig it got so bad I just turned my bass down to zero in the middle of a song. He never noticed.
As mainly a Gospel and R&B/Soul musician, I prefer only one guitarist, due to the fact that most bands will have one or two keyboard players (piano, organ, synths, etc.) as well. If that were not true, for most situations, I would not have a preference and would be open to another guitarist.
D
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These have existed for years - people won't use them live as the onstage volume level is always set by how loud the drummer plays. In my occasional guitarist alternate universe I use a 15w valve amp, but most guitarists still seem to be in the 50w - 100w territory...
I only have this problem in the recording studio where too many people like the metal aesthetic of gigantic guitars and tiny bass. Live I have no problems. Consequently I find live mixes to be more ballsy and cooler than studio mixes. I use a Genz Benz ShuttleMax 12 - it has superfast dynamic response and cuts through with plenty of high-mids. When I use other heads I have to turn up louder because I'm not used to the lack of note definition.
With my cover band there is only one guitarist. He doesn't turn up super-loud and we often cover songs from two-guitar bands so I'm more prominent than the bass normally is. I use various overdrives depending upon the occasion: Green Rhino pedal subtly distorted for Red Barchetta, and a bit more cranked when I'm covering a guitar harmony or power chords like on South of Heaven. For Black Sabbath and that kind of tube overdrive sound, I click on the overdrive circuit on my Aguilar Tone Hammer pre-amp pedal. If we're doing a slow tune where I need to make up for the lack of rhythm guitars and keyboards during guitar solos, I'll get a bunch of extra shimmer and presence from a Boss Bass Flanger.
With my original metal band, there are two guitarists and one of them turns up much louder than the guys in any of my single guitar groups. Even more dangerous, they tune as low as Drop C. (My lowest note is G0, close to the bottom of human hearing, at this point.) Even here though, I'm plenty audible at shows, even when my amp only has the master volume at 9 o'clock or so. I chalk this up to sound guys liking my tone and cranking it in the house mix.
So.... Genz Benz!
The number of guitars is a band should be immaterial, providing they are mixed and eq'd properly and don't play over each other. Iron Maiden have three guitarists, as did the Eagles. Steve Vai's recent Generation Axe tour had five on the end jam!
People need to leave their egos at the door and play for the greater good, not themselves.
People need to leave their egos at the door and play for the greater good, not themselves.
I like when the 2 guitars do the iron maiden harmony thing. And when they do, they do it loud. Like 2 vintage 100 watt marshalls loud. But i have the ground covered and have made conscious effort to get a sound that can be heard anywhere in a 2 mile radius.
