If you want pre-given written material and more overt swing, you can't do better than these albums - more insane bass playing as well:
More overt swing here as well:
More overt swing here as well:
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Double Bass Help me understand "free jazz"
- Thread starter krfoss
- Start date
If you want it more brutal, these albums with the great German saxophonist and a South African rhythm section might be more helpful:
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Sometime going full on is more useful than easing in!
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Sometime going full on is more useful than easing in!
It is really one of the best things about it. It is great to be involved with something where everyone takes it seriously and puts everything they have into. It also keeps this from being true or the norm:
There are not all that many people engaged world wide compared to other genres and the competent to hack ratio is lower or average than most genres - especially the bass players.
I am not opposed to small audiences, though for the last three decades my peers and I have played regularly to decent audiences all over the world while getting paid and selling albums at each concert, the masters have done ever better. So again, not true.
This is the only true statement in your post.
Damon, your listening suggestions are on fire, my friend! - just what the doctor ordered for these old stale ears! Thank you thank you!
I think, at it's best, Free Jazz explores musical structures and organizational ideas that are outside of traditional notions of harmony, tonality, meter, etc. I think it's related to 12-tone serialism in that the player is trying to improvise in a group without anchoring to a key center or rhythmic repetition - the performers are trying to "free" themselves of that traditional structure. When it works, you hear organization to the music, even though its not the types of organization you are used to listening for - key, chords, melodies, time signature, etc. I think my mom said it best after having to hear teenage me blare Ornette Coleman in my room for a couple weeks: she said, "actually ... the more you listen to it, the more it starts to sound like something."
I would hope it's helpful, the OP asked for insight, people are giving personal insight as to why and how they receive the music/performance and how it affects them individually, it is simply additional insight (more info) to help the OP understand the different perspectives of how the music and/or performance is received by the listener/players and how it enjoyed (or not). That's why people took the time they took to respond. Sheesh!
Thank you, Damon, for sharing your experiences. I appreciate your perspective and you sharing it so eloquently.
I find some of the ideas in this thread so offense I can't really engage with them so I’ll just say this: the people making this music often have sacrificed a lot to be doing what they're doing and are very, very, competent. It’s okay to not like things but be careful to have respect for things some of us have pursued our whole lives. I was lucky enough to hear William Parker & Cooper-Moore at 15 and knew I wanted in on whatever they were doing the instant I heard them. I was a snot-nosed teenager playing in punk bands and it absolutely blew my mind. Nothing has ever made more sense to me; the music was beautiful, radical, political and inspiring all at once and changed everything about my life and still brings me to my instrument daily 20 some years later.
I find some of the ideas in this thread so offense I can't really engage with them so I’ll just say this: the people making this music often have sacrificed a lot to be doing what they're doing and are very, very, competent. It’s okay to not like things but be careful to have respect for things some of us have pursued our whole lives. I was lucky enough to hear William Parker & Cooper-Moore at 15 and knew I wanted in on whatever they were doing the instant I heard them. I was a snot-nosed teenager playing in punk bands and it absolutely blew my mind. Nothing has ever made more sense to me; the music was beautiful, radical, political and inspiring all at once and changed everything about my life and still brings me to my instrument daily 20 some years later.
Not at all, as a matter of fact. I've had a couple of "sophisticated" player friends explain to me that Sun Ra was considered to be very run-of-the-mill until he went all-in with the whole persona thing - using the exact work: "schtick". I live within walking distance of "the house" so he's part of the neighborhood mythology. I can frequently catch Arkestra shows, for free. That was the basis for my friends' unsolicited opinion and the basis of my question. As it stands, I have no dog in this - I am, as recommended, approaching this like a five year old with annoying questions. Please share some insight with me, for the sake of the children.
There are a lot of things, like wine or whiskey, that I am happy to have a glass of when handed to me - though I have very little personal interest in the nuances and never buy (unless I am using either for a braise). What I don't do is hop on wine or Whiskey forums and answer questions about the why someone doesn't get either.
Not liking free jazz or not fully engaging with it means you are a normal person. It is not of any interest or any sort "badge of honor".
Well, you are seeing a version of the Arkestra - not the one under Sun Ra who was visionary far beyond music. Not to take anything away from the grand maestro Marshall Allen - who I was fortunate enough to play with for a few years and then I later recorded with him.
Sun Ra was one of the founders of black modernism which is is having a nice resurgence as "Afro Futurism". There is a lot more going on than music - if that is what you mean. They used to have a fantastic singer / dancer named June Tyson, the visual and theatrical is woven in. He made films and wrote incredible poetry. His musicianship and discipline was legendary. Some of the finest jazz musicians dedicated their lives to the Arkestra, Marshall, John Gilmore, Pat Patrick as well as the bass god Ronnie Boykins. The great Hayes Burnett was with the band for a time as well.
Phil Niblock's short film is a good overview for more fun track down the uncut Space is the Place (Part of a collaboration between UC Berkeley, the Black Panthers and porn producers the Mitchell brothers - it was filmed on the set of Behind the Green Door during down time for that film)
Your friends are incorrect. He worked as leader in Chicago in the 1950s with a lot of the great players who ended up in his band. The drummer Alvin Fielder, who recorded with him in the 50s and who was close friend of mine and collaborator told me this! The "schtick" doesn't work without the great players and it hardly brought him any kind of mainstream success.
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Who said it was, lol at this point you just sound like an opinionated blowhard...
Why continue insulting people for their perspective? (rhetorical).
It just seems unnecessary and may give pause to people from chiming in if they feel there is a apparently self appointed "gatekeeper" telling people how they must enjoy "free jazz" or any genre of music for that matter, or that they are doing it wrong, lol. Ever heard of a high horse? (again rhetorical).
C’mon, ya’ll - lots of wisdom on this thread, sift through sand to find the sugar (or don’t), but let’s keep that world famous talkbass tact and decorum that separates us from other internet rabbit holes… we’re all friends here!
I sound like a person who dedicated their life to this work defending it against people like you who continue to insult it. I will continue to do that in this thread until the Mods shut it down. I am not telling anyone how they must enjoy anything. I am telling you and others that recounting how you don't enjoy it is not helpful.
I love those Don Cherry's and I think they're a great into to Free Jazz (whatever that is - I'm uncomfortable using that term). That early Shepp stuff not so much. 4 For Trane is a much better starting point IMO. I really love his later stuff too which shows how beautifully an "out" player can apply his language to standard jazz material.
Your question doesn't make any sense to me. What is "proper" free jazz? By "schtick" do you mean the cultural movement of Afrofuturism or one persons personal journey to definite themselves and their life on their own terms? Also, what kind of five year old cares about what's proper free jazz.
Are you asking, is Sun Ra's life and work valid? or does the Arkestra make valid music?
or do you mean, what is Afrofuturism? or why do people love Sun Ra and the Arkestra? I've never thought about what "proper" free jazz would be, but I suggest you use your own ears and come to your own conclusions about the music. All those questions do seem off topic and also I'm not really the right person to answer them. (The right person to answer them is John Szwed in his biography, Space is The Place.) I do routinely work with a former member of the Arkestra and can say there is no "schtick" in his playing. Just lots and lots of swing.
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Yeah I'm not at all put off by "gatekeepers" - I wouldn't use that word, however. Tourists, cranks, dilettantes are abundant around the periphery of any artform requiring a degree of sophistication and received understanding to appreciate. First order of business, when answering noob questions, is to sort and make sure nobody's time is being wasted.
I'm (over?)familiar with the politics, imagery, history of Sun Ra - as I mentioned, you can't swing a dead cat in my neighborhood without Space is the Place playing on a random TV screen - pizza shops, etc (not being facetious - OK, maybe a little). In college a lot of dudes ran out to grab Arkestra records because Thurston Moore said he was a fan.
There was some depth to my question about Sun Ra, which I guess I should've just asked outright.
Specifically:
- How necessarily intertwined are politics, worldview and perception-of-reality with the genre?
- For someone within the free jazz "artworld public", how does he discern the line between legit art and parody/pastiche/etc? (or is there space within the genre for parody/pastiche/etc?)
- Is there, in fact, space for the listener/audience or is there some initiatory element one must undergo in order to be properly entertained? (does it devalue the genre if vulgar folks find certain elements entertaining?)
Nobody's obligated to answer these questions in a forum or anywhere else. But I'm not shy about asking because I like it when people ask me about things I have my own unique insight, perspective and/or initiation into.
I'm (over?)familiar with the politics, imagery, history of Sun Ra - as I mentioned, you can't swing a dead cat in my neighborhood without Space is the Place playing on a random TV screen - pizza shops, etc (not being facetious - OK, maybe a little). In college a lot of dudes ran out to grab Arkestra records because Thurston Moore said he was a fan.
There was some depth to my question about Sun Ra, which I guess I should've just asked outright.
Specifically:
- How necessarily intertwined are politics, worldview and perception-of-reality with the genre?
- For someone within the free jazz "artworld public", how does he discern the line between legit art and parody/pastiche/etc? (or is there space within the genre for parody/pastiche/etc?)
- Is there, in fact, space for the listener/audience or is there some initiatory element one must undergo in order to be properly entertained? (does it devalue the genre if vulgar folks find certain elements entertaining?)
Nobody's obligated to answer these questions in a forum or anywhere else. But I'm not shy about asking because I like it when people ask me about things I have my own unique insight, perspective and/or initiation into.
BTW - for the record, I'm making a listening list of stuff being recommended here. I'll take good info regardless of the delivery. It's interesting that @crd mentioned William Parker because that's specifically who I had in mind when referring to live shows that I really enjoyed (but listening to his recorded music never hit me the same way - I found it kind of like listening to literature on audible.com)
