Double Bass Help me understand "free jazz"

[damonsmith]

From a player's perspective the real question is not so much the end product but rather how it was conceived. Some music on the surface sounds 'free' but in fact relies heavily on known and practised material e.g. Cecil Taylor, while other music may seem to be following convention but in fact starts from a place of freedom, without using preconceived ideas, relying only on what the player hears and feels in the moment - e.g. Lee Konitz. Which jazz is more free?

Konitz was pretty free - he did some more out albums and his playing worked great in those contexts. Motion is kind of a free jazz album in terms of how open it feels. He is on this album which is way more improvised music than free jazz:

I never heard what CT practiced, but I did rehearse with him and the rehearsal process was far different from the concert. There is ton of improvising and freedom in what he plays, I would guess his practice was different - though he did have a lot of material he kept using over the years.

 

[mtto]

Lee Konitz is on possibly the first free jazz recording: "Intuition" and "Digression" with Lennie Tristano's group.

 

[mtto]

Warne Marsh was on those early sessions as well. He returned to "free" playing again on "Touch and Go" from Ne Plus Ultra in the late 60s.
I put "free" in quotes because from the perspective of this wing of the jazz family, the goal of an improvisor is always to play free, pre-existing form or no. Warne always played free, even when chord changes are present.

 

[mtto]

Keith Jarrett, Gary Peacock, and Jack DeJohnette released a couple of free records, "Inside Out" and "Always Let Me Go." Fascinating to hear musicians that played free in the early years of that music revisit free jazz after recording mountains of standards albums for decades.

 

[Keith Rawlings]

This thread has a lot of great free jazz talk on it.
Free Jazz and Improvised Music

 

[GlenParks]

Listening to someone else perform free jazz, to me is like watching other people eat.

THIS. Not as a rule. But this I really can relate to. Thanks!

 

[brianrost]

why do people love Sun Ra and the Arkestra?

Seeing Sun Ra live was one of the most fun concerts I've ever attended. Just pure fun.

P.S. The uncut version of the movie "Space is the Place" is something that can't be easily described in words, but it's also a lot of fun.

 

[damonsmith]

THIS. Not as a rule. But this I really can relate to. Thanks!

It is one of the more insulting posts in the thread, and if you really think you relate to it yet list Milford Graves as an influence, then you need to rethink your ideas. If you tried look Milford (RIP) or any of his peers in the eye and try to relate that dumb metaphor then they would rip you a new one. People are so used to insulting this music they don't even know they are doing it half the time.
Also: Milford Graves had a bigger audience than you or cruise ship buddy so the metaphor doesn't actually hold up. It is fine to not be interested and you don't need to justify your disinterest.

Moving on, Milford Graves had an incredible concept of rhythm and music:



The New York Art Quartet was a fantastic group he was in:




As an aside, there is a whole scene for watching people eat, and it is doing better than any strain of jazz. This lady has over a million views:

 

[GlenParks]

It is one of the more insulting posts in the thread, and if you really think you relate to it yet list Milford Graves as an influence, then you need to rethink your ideas. If you tried look Milford (RIP) or any of his peers in the eye and try to relate that dumb metaphor then they would rip you a new one. People are so used to insulting this music they don't even know they are doing it half the time.
Also: Milford Graves had a bigger audience than you or cruise ship buddy so the metaphor doesn't actually hold up. It is fine to not be interested and you don't need to justify your disinterest.

Moving on, Milford Graves had an incredible concept of rhythm and music:



The New York Art Quartet was a fantastic group he was in:




As an aside, there is a whole scene for watching people eat, and it is doing better than any strain of jazz. This lady has over a million views:

Wow.

I didn't think it was an insult. And perhaps you are right that I don't understand... or maybe you are taking it too personally. I am very interested. I've watched a lot of your videos Damon. I am really interested in Musical Metaphysics, music as a vehicle for higher expression and experience than just 'music'... I really enjoy free music performed on only monophonic instruments in small ensembles.

The part I relate to is that I find much more reward in playing it than listening to it. I like listening to it but less so the older I get. Like you I grew up with hxc (if I am remembering a write up on you I read correctly) and that lead to grindcore and that led to noise music... so, as far as followers or fan base... dude, I really don't care. I think Milford and I could look each other in the eye just fine. I honor the responsibility he felt for the sounds/vibrations/energy he shared. I have seen and thoroughly enjoyed performances of plenty of out there stuff. I don't understand why my comment was taken as an attack. I've watched your posts for years and know you to be very opinionated, that's cool, grain of salt, ya know?

Anyway, point blank: you don't know me, and it's pretty gross to me to just go in on someone like that. Take care dude.

 

[damonsmith]

The part I relate to is that I find much more reward in playing it than listening to it.

The post you said THIS to was a total put down of the music by cruise ship musician from Canada - that is the post I meant was the most insulting post in the thread, not yours. Yours is less so, but the sentiment (which is common) doesn't give the music the respect it deserves.

I will give you and the others that this music is going to fit into your life in a different way than most other musics. Still, I would counter you are going to find far less reward in playing the music if you don't listen! Of course, it is not "everyday" listening, but if you are going to find your context in free jazz you are going to find it tough going without a strong handle on the recorded history. People try it and it never amounts to work of any consequence. In my mind it isn't about influence, it isn't about what to do, but where to start, maybe.
Whatever music we are playing, knowing the history and the current state of it is a must. It needn't be enjoyable even, it can be like scales or a bass method - part of the work. Being a curious person, I enjoy listening to the music every bit as much as playing it. I tend to listen in the morning, two or three albums that are either new or relate to what I am working on - this is part of my work time.
In the evening when I make dinner or something it is more about straight ahead jazz or classical music or more tonal and relaxed free music like Paul Bley or ECM albums. Tonight it was Walt Dickerson.

I tend to listen to free jazz and improvised music alone when I can concentrate on it. Of, course over the years there are lots of albums I have found I really love and I will put them on when I might otherwise listen to something more normal.
I don't like music when I bike because I love the sounds of the bike, however, there is a six mile loop with a lot of grades I do for exercise and I will listen when I do that. Cecil Taylor will REALLY power me around it.

 

[GlenParks]

The post you said THIS to was a total put down of the music by cruise ship musician from Canada - that is the post I meant was the most insulting post in the thread, not yours. Yours is less so, but the sentiment (which is common) doesn't give the music the respect it deserves.

I will give you and the others that this music is going to fit into your life in a different way than most other musics. Still, I would counter you are going to find far less reward in playing the music if you don't listen! Of course, it is not "everyday" listening, but if you are going to find your context in free jazz you are going to find it tough going without a strong handle on the recorded history. People try it and it never amounts to work of any consequence. In my mind it isn't about influence, it isn't about what to do, but where to start, maybe.
Whatever music we are playing, knowing the history and the current state of it is a must. It needn't be enjoyable even, it can be like scales or a bass method - part of the work. Being a curious person, I enjoy listening to the music every bit as much as playing it. I tend to listen in the morning, two or three albums that are either new or relate to what I am working on - this is part of my work time.
In the evening when I make dinner or something it is more about straight ahead jazz or classical music or more tonal and relaxed free music like Paul Bley or ECM albums. Tonight it was Walt Dickerson.

I tend to listen to free jazz and improvised music alone when I can concentrate on it. Of, course over the years there are lots of albums I have found I really love and I will put them on when I might otherwise listen to something more normal.
I don't like music when I bike because I love the sounds of the bike, however, there is a six mile loop with a lot of grades I do for exercise and I will listen when I do that. Cecil Taylor will REALLY power me around it.

I love the Paul Bley w/ NHØP album for making dinner. People aren't all that different. I DID laugh at Branford Marsalis take on Cecil, OUT LOUD, when I first saw Ken Burns Jazz (yes I know some people hate it, what don't they though right?) but a big part of that was laughing at myself too. One thing I realized between the last post and this about MY impression of Milford Graves was he reached people where They were at... it was For People... not for Art's sake. Which is generally my impression of Cecil. Not a put down. A preference of my own. I've never met him. You have.

 

[damonsmith]

I love the Paul Bley w/ NHØP album for making dinner. People aren't all that different. I DID laugh at Branford Marsalis take on Cecil, OUT LOUD, when I first saw Ken Burns Jazz (yes I know some people hate it, what don't they though right?) but a big part of that was laughing at myself too. One thing I realized between the last post and this about MY impression of Milford Graves was he reached people where They were at... it was For People... not for Art's sake. Which is generally my impression of Cecil. Not a put down. A preference of my own. I've never met him. You have.

Maybe, though I think Milford was very into the high art aspect of as well, but he had his own path for sure. I think Cecil having to fight for the music in out of the as one of three or four innovators coupled with coming up as a gay man in the '50s gave him a sharper edge.
Personally, I found him to be very nice. He spent a lot of time with me and told me tons of great stories. When you played with him, it felt like he was orchestrating every sound you made, surrounding it in in his ideas. It was fantastic.

Milford had his teaching job and Cecil really fought it out on the concert stage and was a real activist for the music being treated with dignity, as am I.

This is one of the greatest trios to ever play the music:


This one is long, but it is my favorite! Sirone is incredible throughout.


These early swinging albums are also very interesting:

 

[damonsmith]

And yes, this is a really beautiful album!

 

[brianrost]

My way into free jazz (and jazz in general) was via Frank Zappa. He would make mentions in liner notes and song titles of musicians I had never heard of. I heard Pharoah Sanders doing "The Creator Has A Master Plan" on the underground FM stations and I found "A Love Supreme" (and Edgard Varese) at the public library.

When I was 15 a new record store opened in a nearby mall that stocked lots of cutouts. I got my first Eric Dolphy record and a bunch of the BYG Actuel LPs. With the same white front cover design and the huge color photo on the rear cover with no information at all about what was inside, it was a total leap of faith. I went home with three Archie Shepps, my first Sun Ra (Solar Myth Approach pt.2) and both volumes of Don Cherry and Ed Blackwell's "Mu"...all for $12! A year or two later I came across a bin full of Impulse cutouts...Pharoah, Dewey Redman, Marion Brown, Michael White, Sam Rivers. I soon got my first Ornette LPs.

The first free concert I attended was in New Haven CT at Southern Connecticut State University, 1978? The opener was Don Pullen (solo) and headlining was the Sam Rivers Quartet with Barry Altschul, Joe Daley and Dave Holland. I was a total Dave Holland fanboi after that! That led me to Circle which led me to Anthony Braxton. BTW, like many college concerts it was free and because of the music, only about a dozen people were in attendance.

Over the years many others doorways opened up...discovering ECM via Metheny, Burton and Holland, finding Cadence magazine (RIP) in the college library led me to HatHut, Jack Bruce led me to Carla Bley, hearing a Jimmy Giuffre interview on college radio, a motherlode of ESP cutouts showing up one day in a local store, Bill Laswell using players like Blood Ulmer, Pharoah, Henry Threadgill, Peter Brotzman and Sonny Sharrock on his albums, seeing Paul Bley and Lee Konitz with Steve Swallow and no drums. Etc.

I still have to work at it. I saw William Parker and Cooper-Moore a few years back and it just didn't grab me, not sure if it was an off night or not. Cecil Taylor after his Blue Note LPs is still an enigma to me.

 

[damonsmith]

I still have to work at it. I saw William Parker and Cooper-Moore a few years back and it just didn't grab me, not sure if it was an off night or not. Cecil Taylor after his Blue Note LPs is still an enigma to me.

There are off nights like any music. The other possibility is that they just went somewhere you didn't want or need to go.
Since the starting point is so often not using things known to "work" even things that have "worked" for Free Jazz. A lot of the posts are rooted in enjoyment and I like to think about these things in terms of whether they are useful to my life and/or work. Pure enjoyment can be useful to my life, but looking at how problems are being solved when the interaction is happening at a different place than normal can also be of use. Braxton has a term: "Reception Dynamics". I think that is a useful way to think about it. Some times things move you and it is unexplained, sometimes you just see someone working on something and it is either useful or not!

 

[lurk]

I think a very important point to be made here is that there is nothing wrong with being a "cruise ship musician from Canada." Work is honorable, and if that's the work you do and you do it well, you should be proud of yourself. It ain't easy to make a living playing music these days and everyone can't afford to be a holier-than-thou artiste.

 

[BarqsBitMe]

Its a granted point that each musician is likely doing something very complex and theoretically technical in their own right, but I find it to be musical gibberish.

This is accurate. Music can be complex and technical and still sound terrible. To me, "free jazz" sounds like a high school concert band warming up, everyone playing random things simultaneously.

 

[damonsmith]

I think a very important point to be made here is that there is nothing wrong with being a "cruise ship musician from Canada." Work is honorable, and if that's the work you do and you do it well, you should be proud of yourself. It ain't easy to make a living playing music these days and everyone can't afford to be a holier-than-thou artiste.

100% - I've always thought it actually might be a fun gig! Also, it takes a lot of skills. The point is just about the diametrically viewpoint that particularly insulting metaphor is coming from.

Another musician who is getting a stronger place in the music these days is the great Alice Coltrane.

&

As far as:

Its a granted point that each musician is likely doing something very complex and theoretically technical in their own right, but I find it to be musical gibberish.

&

This is accurate. Music can be complex and technical and still sound terrible. To me, "free jazz" sounds like a high school concert band warming up, everyone playing random things simultaneously.

Imagine what is means to say this about a spoken language you don't speak. Like you hear a recording of Pablo Neruda or Rilke reading their poems and cal lit "gibberish". Not a great look!

 

[brianrost]

Another musician who is getting a stronger place in the music these days is the great Alice Coltrane.

Critics in the 70s raked her over the coals as riding on John's coattails. Then she retired to an ashram for years, coming out to record one more album before she died, Translinear Light (w/Charlie Haden). Now she is being rediscovered and reconsidered and gaining even more fans.

A real favorite of mine is the episode of Marian McPartland's Piano Jazz where Alice is the guest. Their duets are fantastic. I also enjoy concert recordings of her sitting in with son Ravi's band.

The only dud in her discography is the album she cut with Carlos Santana. Despite Dave Holland and Jack deJohnette on board, it never really lifts off.

 

[BarqsBitMe]

Imagine what is means to say this about a spoken language you don't speak. Like you hear a recording of Pablo Neruda or Rilke reading their poems and cal lit "gibberish". Not a great look!

You need not be offended by my general dislike for a given genre of music. I don't like most country music either, and it is not due to a lack of not speaking the language.