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Double Bass Help me understand "free jazz"

I love those Don Cherry's and I think they're a great into to Free Jazz (whatever that is - I'm uncomfortable using that term). That early Shepp stuff not so much. 4 For Trane is a much better starting point IMO. I really love his later stuff too which shows how beautifully an "out" player can apply his language to standard jazz material.
The Don Cherry stuff is pretty great music by any definition. Strong melodies, and great playing, swinging. The NY Contemporary Five is a lot shaggier, but it is nice example of a real open quarter swing and solid free bop. I like Don Moore's bass playing and he has nice connection with JC Moses.

Don Cherry is a lot more of a central figure than he is often positioned as. He did so much as a side man to so many of the early great players that you can really get a good picture of the music just by tracing his movement through it. His own albums are fantastic as pointed out above.
 
Specifically:
- How necessarily intertwined are politics, worldview and perception-of-reality with the genre?
I think it is pretty intertwined with Free Jazz less so with Free Improvisation which is sort of parallel to Free Jazz
- For someone within the free jazz "artworld public", how does he discern the line between legit art and parody/pastiche/etc? (or is there space within the genre for parody/pastiche/etc?)
It is like any art, it is about whether a person is adding anything to the history or moving some part of it forward a bit. Parody doesn't work very well because it has often been taken on by white guys who can't actually play the music and that never sits well.
There is a tremendous amount of stamina that it takes just to last through a concert with someone like Cecil Taylor or Brotzmann and the technical level it takes to actually create at the velocity is pretty high. People don't really take music that far just to take the piss.
- Is there, in fact, space for the listener/audience or is there some initiatory element one must undergo in order to be properly entertained? (does it devalue the genre if vulgar folks find certain elements entertaining?)
I enjoy listening to the music. There are plenty of fun albums by Sun Ra even, the doo wop singles, Night of the Purple Moon. William Parker has as many traditionally enjoyable albums as he has hardcore albums. There is a whole South African strain of the music that is super fun to experience. It is a big genre and a lot happened in it. The more you know the more you are going to enjoy things - as long as we understand the more we know the more we don't know. However, like abstract visual art, each person and era is an abstraction on the last. So, it might help to hear some early Ornette that is still in time with free melodies before Peacock and Sunny Murry blow the open the rhythm section roles.
 
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I sound like a person who dedicated their life to this work defending it against people like you who continue to insult it. I will continue to do that in this thread until the Mods shut it down. I am not telling anyone how they must enjoy anything. I am telling you and others that recounting how you don't enjoy it is not helpful.
Reading comprehension is not your strong suite. "defending it against people like you who continue to insult it". Never did I insult it, never did say I don't enjoy it nor did I put it down. I stated only more often then not I don't vibe with it, if I do like what is being layed down I stay for the performance. I also said what I like very much about the genre that is WAY different than your off base and entirely untrue accusations and insults. You sound very confused, your replies are disengenuous and simply full of insults and bloviations. You need to learn how to listen (I'm certain you have heard that before) good luck with that...
 
Never did I insult it, /QUOTE]
You said "anyone can play it if they listen", which is an insult to any genre and the full time practitioners of that genre. Somehow people feel fine level all kinds of things like this against free jazz that wouldn't for any other genre - unless they were trying to put it down. So, I did listen, maybe you didn't hear yourself.
 
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Can someone address the similarities between these two styles of jazz? I love trad and hot jazz but not free jazz, so I wonder what the parallels are.
Collective improvisation & independent lines rather than part of the group "holding it down" while the one person solos.
Albert Ayler had the most parallels with Dixieland, this group in particular:
 
I'm in no way advocating them but do chemicals help to get it? Because they apparently played quite a role in the evolution of the genre.
I have never heard that about free jazz (would be curious to know where that information is from) and defenitely not in my experience. It's actually pretty level headed music to me. What makes free jazz work in my experience is interaction - focused listening to each other, in real time. That won't work if everybody goes off into their own chemically induced world or other forms of alternative reality. I know some serious potheads, but when they play shows they are stone cold sober.

Free jazz (and free improv) can be the greatest and it can be the worst. When it is great it is an amazing experience, whether you play it or listen to it in equal terms.

Some of it is great and some of it not so much-like any other music form. The best musicians in the genre are the best because of commitment to the art - etc etc. It works like any other music.
 
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If you are looking for virtuoso bass playing:

Damon,

all of your listening suggestions are super-spot-on - this one hit home with me on a special level because that's the band that played the "Conference Of The Birds" album, an album that I almost forgot about, but it was my own personal introduction to both Dave Holland and Sam Rivers (two life-long musical love affairs of mine). For me, that record served as a good starting point (there were more, though) to a more "open" (for lack of a better term) playing style.
May I throw this in the mix:

R-493864-1366577654-9287.jpg


Kind of in a similar ballpark, lots of virtuoso bass playing as well...
Keep 'em coming, Damon, I'm all ears :-)

Best
Sidecar
 
Thank you @damonsmith for your generous sharing of material to listen to. It's hard to find on one's own and I admire the bulk of work you are sifting through for us.
To be honest, I don't agree with everything you say, but that doesn't stop me from listening.
By the way, my sons and I enjoyed very much your YouTube performance in duo with that drummer you put there recently. My sons are 5 and 7 and they were listening keenly throughout the whole piece. There's not much music they are able to survive in one piece. They are much more open to weird stuff like this than I am; perhaps they just don't know they should be understanding this ;-)
[Sorry for my English]
 
I am going to chime in here and propose that both “free jazz” and “jazz” itself both are long over-due for a serious rebranding. I get annoyed at genre classification because it leads to statements like “I don’t like free jazz” or “free jazz is too dissonant for me”, "I only like free jazz live", etc. Lines drawn in the sand are always washed away by the tide (time), and only serve to limit the lay-listener's experience and divide records at the (now defunct) record store. The ‘Glass Bead Game’ that is modern improvised music has grown to encompass the totality of world music and ALL the traditions. In practice and study, it is certainly ok to focus on and honor one tradition at a time (and have your favorites); but be wary of the instinct to wholly reject entire branches (be them ‘free’ or ‘smooth’) based on limited exposure or initial gut reactions. All there is to do is give it time - one might have totally different ears/perspective next listen. There’s a whole wide world that we can’t necessarily see/hear because we’re often too busy ascribing (imaginary) qualitative judgments to that which simply is. Full disclosure: I'm an idiot and have but a small fraction of the experience most of you lot do, so thanks for posting and letting me hang. These listening suggestions have lit a fire under my butt ("There's gold in them mountains!"), and I've picked up saxophone and flute again (with joy!) for the first time in a long time as a result. Truely invaluable in my experience - thank you!
 
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Another person who is very important is the great Bill Dixon. He was an innovative trumpet player and thinker who loved the bass more that we do! He almost always had two or more basses! His music was always beautiful, complex & open/
Alan Silva & Mario Pavone are on this one:

Peter Kowald, William Parker & Mario Pavone are on this one:

This is earlier, but I think it is best to hear his later work first, Jimmy Garrison & Reggie Workman are on this:


There are two CDs of this session, Vade Mecum 1 & 2. Still some of the most advanced music ever made. He makes an in interesting point he makes here when he says: "The compositions are by Bill Dixon, the lines of Barry Guy, William Parker & Tony Oxley are their own". At another point he says, "If I want someone to do something I'll suggest it from the horn".

A variation on that group with German bassists:
 
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The sentiment is a great one, but in practice I feel like genres are more and more important and not less so. Rather than erase them, they need to become rooms with open doors we can freely move between. There is a record store in Austin that is called Waterloo and it is pure hell. No genres. It seems like a cute idea idea but you will cry uncle for a jazz section in just a few minutes!
I am going to chime in here and propose that both “free jazz” and “jazz” itself both are long over-due for a serious rebranding. I get annoyed at genre classification because it leads to statements like “I don’t like free jazz” or “free jazz is too dissonant for me”, "I only like free jazz live", etc. Lines drawn in the sand are always washed away by the tide (time), and only serve to limit the lay-listener's experience and divide records at the (now defunct) record store. The ‘Glass Bead Game’ that is modern improvised music has grown to encompass the totality of world music and ALL the traditions. In practice and study, it is certainly ok to focus on and honor one tradition at a time (and have your favorites); but be wary of the instinct to wholly reject entire branches (be them ‘free’ or ‘smooth’) based on limited exposure or initial gut reactions. All there is to do is give it time - one might have totally different ears/perspective next listen. There’s a whole wide world that we can’t necessarily see/hear because we’re often too busy ascribing (imaginary) qualitative judgments to that which simply is. Full disclosure: I'm an idiot and have but a small fraction of the experience most of you lot do, so thanks for posting and letting me hang. These listening suggestions have lit a fire under my butt ("There's gold in them mountains!"), and I've picked up saxophone and flute again (with joy!) for the first time in a long time as a result. Truely invaluable in my experience - thank you!
 
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The sentiment is a great one, but in practice I feel like genres are more and more important and not less so. Rather than erase them, they need to become rooms with open doors we can freely move between. There is a record store in Austin that is called Waterloo and it is pure hell. No genres. It seems like a cute idea idea but you will cry uncle for a jazz section in just a few minutes!

That's interesting. I don't think I necessarily meant it literally, but that's super cool that someone has taken the idea that far - successful implementation or not.

I've got a bumper sticker on my truck that says "don't perpetuate stereotypes." One of the more interesting conversations that has come up from it was from someone arguing the usefulness of stereotypes for the sake of communication, and your perspective on genera resonates with that to me. My point is, though, that genera (and stereotypes) are useful insofar as a 'finger pointing at the moon', but we shouldn't dismiss the individuality of the tree for the sake of categorizing the forest (if that isn't mixing metaphors, lol)...

I'm uncomfortable with any generalized, blanket statements about free jazz (or black people, Italians, Jews, et cetera) because it can quickly lead down a slippery slope, ya dig? If you know how to navigate the moglus, then by all means use the genera and stereotypes to communicate and teach, though. It's a case-by-case basis just like anything and that's kind of my point, I guess...

Thanks again for your patience with me playing about here.
 
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T
I'm uncomfortable with any generalized, blanket statements about free jazz
Yeah, the ones I've swatted down here are very common and I have just found them not to be true at all. There are plenty of musicians having far more success in terms of audience and album sales than me. People are more ready for it that anyone seems to think You show up and play well, take the music seriously and people respond.
 
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From a player's perspective the real question is not so much the end product but rather how it was conceived. Some music on the surface sounds 'free' but in fact relies heavily on known and practised material e.g. Cecil Taylor, while other music may seem to be following convention but in fact starts from a place of freedom, without using preconceived ideas, relying only on what the player hears and feels in the moment - e.g. Lee Konitz. Which jazz is more free?
 
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Part of a collaboration between UC Berkeley, the Black Panthers and porn producers the Mitchell brothers - it was filmed on the set of Behind the Green Door during down time for that film)

Can't resist the pull of memory. I played a "Hohner" pianet part on BT GreenDoor. And I worked with/for the Mitchell Brothers, many times through many years, producing and playing on sound tracks for porn. What I found remarkable about my relationship with the Mitchell Brothers, spanning quite a few years, was the absolute trustworthiness of their verbal contracts. Pornographers, coke freaks, fratricides, but always absolutely true to their words. I can't think of many other business relationships in the music biz which I have experienced, with that degree of integrity and trust. Life can be complex.

Steven