Double Bass Help me understand "free jazz"

[rodl2005]

One does not simply UNDERSTAND free jazz

 

[damonsmith]

They literally sampled several dozen barnyard animal sounds and just made MIDI jibberish for 15 minutes....

That sounds so much better than Song X! Yet, not as good as New York is Now or Bright Size Life!

 

[damonsmith]

I often find free jazz more fun to play than to listen to.

My least favorite idea when this discussion comes up. I prefer the bad jokes and insults to this particular sentiment - it really just exposes a superficial engagement with the the music. I mean, try that with any other music and see where it gets you! Next time you have a jazz gig with a great older player and they start talking about a great Monk album - try looking them in the eye and telling them, " Jazz is more fun to play that to listen to".
Most music is more fun to play than to listen to, but that isn't actually what you saying here...

Also really like structured music with elements or sections of free improvisation built into it, with periodic returns to structure, such as this:

All serious free music has that, it is just constructed in the moment and not brought from home. Another misconception about the music. Not as bad as the tired "conversation" metaphor, but damn close!

 

[damonsmith]

Not an intelligent post at all and terrible recipe for any music. If you are not interested, then you are not interested. The implication that you can just get up and play free jazz with no research or study is as insulting as it is racist. Any music worth your time is worth researching and doing well as you possibly can. The music basically starts with John Coltrane and if there was ever a model for discipline it is John Coltrane.

And if anything, you are watching people cook, not eat. A master chef or pitmaster is a sight to behold.

I like to compare "Free Jazz" with "Eating".

Every one needs to eat. It's nourishment for life.

I think everyone should be free to create something at some time. For musicians, creating free jazz is a good experience to do, at some point. Do it.

Listening to someone else perform free jazz, to me is like watching other people eat.

Watching other people eat, is not nourishing. It's also not useful as watching other people prepare and cook food.

Try doing free jazz, instead of listening to others do it.

Eat food, instead of watching other people eat food.

 

[longfinger]

.

Yawn.

extrapolate -> The implication that a toddler can just get up and walk with no research or study is as insulting as it is ageist.

And yet toddlers do this every day. The research and study is the watching, the doing and failing and doing again. No one expects them to be competent walkers yet, they are bad at it, but that is how it starts. Doing it, with confidence, and without the justifiable self-doubt, is what makes the journey happen. Unreflecting confidence makes a lot happen. Refinement can happen after.

Listen, then do. The doing builds up the interest started with the listening. The folks most interested in certain practices are most often the folks actively doing those practices. Doing, helps them appreciate others doing-better. Non-doers don't care too much either way.

You seem happy to repeatedly blather on about your own biases... instead of listening.

Yawn.

Next up: free jazz interpretations of pop song melodies played on plywood basses?

Blathering ... Begin!

 

[5StringBlues]

Popcorn

 

[Dave TB Killer]

I thought it meant No Cover Charge.

 

[C Stone]

Free Jazz IS simply freedom of expression through improvisation and yes anyone can do it, (if you can listen). As far as the racist comment, pfffft!

 

[damonsmith]

You seem happy to repeatedly blather on about your own biases... instead of listening.

Or, I could be speaking from the experience of actually sharing the stage with many of the foundational figures of this music and actually listening to what they have to say.
You & @cstone are likely confusing the tenets free jazz with free improvisation. Free jazz has a different history and was founded by African American jazz musicians and was originally related to the Black Power movement. It has its own traditions and techniques every bit as deep and clear as bebop. Nobody has to like it or listen to it but denigrating the music is not acceptable.

 

[ladybug]

I'm in no way advocating them but do chemicals help to get it? Because they apparently played quite a role in the evolution of the genre.

Not sure how to interpret this?

 

[ladybug]

Isn’t it interesting that many people have such a hard time when dealing with all that supposedly art they don’t “understand” (whatever that means exactly…)? You get all kind of reactions that often reveal more about themselves than about the pieces they are talking about.

For me a proven “method” has been to perceive whatever I have to face with in interest in “why did he do it”. And while answering that, being the least judgemental I can. Not about the artist, not about the piece and certainly not about myself. Just exposing myself for a longer moment (because there is something in there that captures my attention) often reveals unexpected results because of that very exposition I am there to experience.

So to answer your question, only you would know what makes you interested in what you are hearing. If it’s because of a sound or energy you detect in there then it should be easy to follow, this is they way we all build our universe of taste that we identify with.

Understanding often comes with a learning process during which our mental mappings are (re)organized. Repetition is an important factor. Remember when as a child you did not like coffee, alcohol and tabacco and now you cannot exist without it?

I agree

 

[JBarz]

Too many people know a thing or two about a thing or two… don’t you ever find that what you know gets in your way?

I wish that I could approach all music (nay, “all things”) without analysis, judgement, critique, or observation.

The known is a straight jacket restricting direct communion with Reality.

In a subjective world of infinite possibilities, there’s room for everyone to be right (and wrong)! Let us all wiggle our fingers and blow, so to speak.

Too long has Jazz lived in shackles! Jazz is innocent! Free jazz!

 

[h00v3r]

Even though I'm a total Philistine - not kidding, I have little to no sophistication in what I enjoy playing or listening to - I can testify that I actually enjoy hitting up live free jazz performances when I'm able. I find that it takes me about 20 minutes to "warm up my ears" where I'm listening closely with discernment. At that point I do that human brain pattern matching thing and enjoying the the "unity in diversity" thing - when the players start to converge on anything that sounds even remotely conventional, it's more gratifying than the best pop hook. I suppose one could argue that it's pleasurable in the same way stopping hitting yourself with a hammer is. Recorded free jazz does nothing for me - live performances are where it's at. I highly encourage you to hit some live shows (and don't be afraid to have a sense of humor about what's going on, either - like just about anything, it can be legit funny, either by mistake or on purpose)

First, please no "you just don't get it, man" responses. I'm already establishing this.

Its a granted point that each musician is likely doing something very complex and theoretically technical in their own right, but I find it to be musical gibberish.

Is this just a form of jazz that I don't like on a personal taste basis? Or, is there some element of it I'm not listening to correctly that needs to be appreciated in a specific way? Kinda of like a " you don't know what you dont know' way? I love dixieland jazz, which has elements of free jazz where everyone is playing their own part, but that seems much more coherent and listenable to me.

So, help me out. I'm not trying to be insulting to those who love it (necessarily), just trying to see behind the curtain a little.

 

[lurk]

What does it mean to "understand" music anyway? Isn't the whole point of any art that it expresses things that can't be expressed by normal everyday communication or perception? If you could just say it, why paint it or sing it or dance it? I personally enjoy most hearing music live that I have no ability to perform myself. I've become an opera buff, for example. When I listen I'm able to turn off the thinking part of my brain.

 

[damonsmith]

The idea that there are not plenty of people who enjoy listening to free jazz is absurd. While A Love Supreme is the only "gold record" I know of in the genre, free jazz is one of the only genres that still has healthy sales of physical media, tapes, CDs and LPs are selling well from many musicians all over the world and have been for 50 years. So just because you don't like to listen to it don't assume that there isn't an audience.

 

[ablumley]

Its a granted point that each musician is likely doing something very complex and theoretically technical in their own right, but I find it to be musical gibberish.

Is this just a form of jazz that I don't like on a personal taste basis? Or, is there some element of it I'm not listening to correctly that needs to be appreciated in a specific way? Kinda of like a " you don't know what you dont know' way? I love dixieland jazz, which has elements of free jazz where everyone is playing their own part, but that seems much more coherent and listenable to me.

To the OP: From your comment about the parallels with Dixieland, it strikes me that you might already understand some of the basic relational tenets of free jazz well enough. I would ask if you enjoy playing or listening to other forms of music that incorporate dissonance, polyrhythms, extreme timbres and dynamics?

 

[C Stone]

I can testify that I actually enjoy hitting up live free jazz performances when I'm able. I find that it takes me about 20 minutes to "warm up my ears" where I'm listening closely with discernment. At that point I do that human brain pattern matching thing and enjoying the the "unity in diversity" thing - when the players start to converge on anything that sounds even remotely conventional, it's more gratifying than the best pop hook. I suppose one could argue that it's pleasurable in the same way stopping hitting yourself with a hammer is. Recorded free jazz does nothing for me - live performances are where it's at

Well said, this is also true for me.
The best thing about free jazz IMO is the live energy between the musicians laying it down. I wouldn't ever think to put on a free jazz record unless it was a recording of a show I was at while it was created, which would mean I stayed because I liked that particular performance, musicianship and thier energy.

Way more times than not unfortunately the most "free jazz" I can take is about 5 minutes. I have listened to enough to know I just don't usually vibe with it...

And thats ok... "Different strokes" and all that jazz...

 

[statsc]

My least favorite idea when this discussion comes up. I prefer the bad jokes and insults to this particular sentiment - it really just exposes a superficial engagement with the the music. I mean, try that with any other music and see where it gets you! Next time you have a jazz gig with a great older player and they start talking about a great Monk album - try looking them in the eye and telling them, " Jazz is more fun to play that to listen to".
Most music is more fun to play than to listen to, but that isn't actually what you saying here...


All serious free music has that, it is just constructed in the moment and not brought from home. Another misconception about the music. Not as bad as the tired "conversation" metaphor, but damn close!

I should have said “structured beforehand” rather than “structured;” I do understand that free jazz creates the structure as it is being played. I have studied the history of this music and its place in the overall continuum of jazz history, and do appreciate its sociopolitical importance. Also, I love Monk’s music and find it as much “fun” to listen to as it is to play. I’ll be playing Trinkle Tinkle, Four in One, and Crepuscule With Nellie on the gig this coming Thursday.

 

[damonsmith]

I don't really think posts by Canadian cruise ship musicians degrading the music, or anyone else with a limited (you only like playing it, hearing it live, etc.) engagement are actually helpful for the OP. There is no shame for not having found a way to fully engage, ultimately you are in the same boat as the OP, though it is clear many of you are just fine with that position.
It is still not a position to give advice from and it ends up treating this music as "lesser".

Unless you live in Chicago, Houston, Dallas, Boston or NY or a few other places, it is pretty unlikely that you are going to see any live free jazz anytime soon. So recordings are where an interested person is going to be able to connect with it.

If you want rigor and structure, this album has been mentioned and this track is a great place to start - it turns out I've played with four of the seven musicians on this one:

 

[damonsmith]

If you want melody, heavy emotional content and insane bass playing, this is a place to look for that: