Help on Learning a Chord Progression by Ear (Jazz)?

[Matthew_84]

Is there a reason you need to learn this particular tune? Alone together is a great tune, and this is a great arrangement. However, as someone who teaches this stuff in a regular basis, I would encourage you to start with something else, for several reasons:

Alone together is actually a pretty tricky tune, and has some fairly sophisticated harmonic turns.

Arrangements like this will often have harmonic and melodic embellishments that most jazz musicians don't play when they play the tune. I can hear right off that this arrangement has several of both. while learning those embellishments isn't bad per se, you won't be learning the "real" melody or chords (in quotes because the changes and melodies jazz players use are often not the originals anyway: you have to know the "correct wrong changes")

The bass is not super easy to hear on these old recordings, and this one is no exception. It certainly is audible, but if you are new to this kind of transcription, this is a hard one to start with.

I would start with a tune like Cantaloupe Island or Watermelon Man, the changes and melody will be easier to figure out. If you really want to learn Alone Toogether, I would find a more recently recorded version, and possibly look for one with a singer, as singers tend to stick closer to the original melody, and players tend to use more "standard" harmonies when accompanying a singer. remember though SINGERS WILL OFTEN DO SONGS IN NOM STANDARD KEYS, so you will likely have to transpose the song once you get it down. I will often use Chet Baker recordings as my place to start learning a tune, since tune interpretations ore usually pretty straight ahead.

I appreciate the detailed response and feedback!

Alone Together doesn’t have to be the first tune I tackle, but it is one I tasked myself with learning first and I’ve been listening to it for like an hour or two everyday for the last several days/week, so I figure I might as well keep trucking with it.

There is a Chet Baker version (which I’ve heard is a good one to learn for this song), as well a few other newer versions I like a lot, with the bonus that the bass is a lot more audible.

This version just seemed like the most basic version (to my untrained ear anyway) so I started with it, but I’ll start looking at the Chet Baker and other versions too.

If I’m still lost in a few days, I’ll just switch to another tune completely, and come back to this after a few. Thanks again!

 

[singlemalt]

Your goal is developing “big ears”. Why try to do it blindfolded?

Get the chart for a tune and listen (no bass in hand, just listen) as you follow along. Since tunes get called in different keys for various instruments or voices, convert the chord symbols to “Nashville numbers”.


You’ll hear the same changes used over and over. You’ll hear a bunch of turn arounds. You’ll start to recognize common forms and structures. It’s easy to get lost in a 32 bar with A B parts plus a bridge. It could get kind of convoluted with things like repeats or half verses.

And these old recordings can make it really hard to hear pitches.

I like the iRealB app for charts. I can change keys, tempos, backing instruments, and see chords as letters or numbers. It’s a great practice tool.

sure it’s cool to be able to play a tune with nothing to go on, that’s the goal. But if your jam is jazz and folks are calling tunes with no charts, that just leaves you fishing for roots. Nobody wants to do that, or hear it from the bass player. Just sit it out and try to sketch the tune on paper. Or get somebody to call numbers for the first couple go rounds while you scratch it down. Then jump in with some information to go on.

 

[Paul New]

This has nothing to do with the original poster’s question, but it’s such a great tune, and one Bill Evans was known to play probably most nights. It’s intersting to us bass players especially for another reason also.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

26521127[/URL], member: 179169"]I appreciate the detailed response and feedback!

Alone Together doesn’t have to be the first tune I tackle, but it is one I tasked myself with learning first and I’ve been listening to it for like an hour or two everyday for the last several days/week, so I figure I might as well keep trucking with it.

There is a Chet Baker version (which I’ve heard is a good one to learn for this song), as well a few other newer versions I like a lot, with the bonus that the bass is a lot more audible.

This version just seemed like the most basic version (to my untrained ear anyway) so I started with it, but I’ll start looking at the Chet Baker and other versions too.

If I’m still lost in a few days, I’ll just switch to another tune completely, and come back to this after a few. Thanks again!

I have listened to your provided track on iPhone; therefore, no details.
That arrangement requires you to hear and discern minor and major chords.
You should know and recognize a pedal point in the bass, secondary dominant chords, etc.
The track doesn’t complex chords - it’s good.
I would start with the simple bass line of the recording which mostly indicates the roots, just remember about that pedal point in some spots.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

26521229[/URL], member: 43165"]This has nothing to do with the original poster’s question, but it’s such a great tune, and one Bill Evans was known to play probably most nights. It’s intersting to us bass players especially for another reason also.

Your provided version is “day and night” in comparison to the OP’s track.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

I appreciate the detailed response and feedback!

Alone Together doesn’t have to be the first tune I tackle, but it is one I tasked myself with learning first and I’ve been listening to it for like an hour or two everyday for the last several days/week, so I figure I might as well keep trucking with it.

There is a Chet Baker version (which I’ve heard is a good one to learn for this song), as well a few other newer versions I like a lot, with the bonus that the bass is a lot more audible.

This version just seemed like the most basic version (to my untrained ear anyway) so I started with it, but I’ll start looking at the Chet Baker and other versions too.

If I’m still lost in a few days, I’ll just switch to another tune completely, and come back to this after a few. Thanks again!

Me and my buddies are cutting our grocery store jazz teeth on this one here, among others. Just sharing cause...well man just cause. Love this music.

 

[BassyBill]

I think the changes come over clearer in this piano version - but listen without looking if you don’t want to “cheat”.

 

[mike buzzetti]

Your provided version is “day and night” in comparison to the OP’s track.

Yep WAY easier to distinguish the bass lines !! OP version has no low end

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I think the changes come over clearer in this piano version - but listen without looking if you don’t want to “cheat”.

The OP’s provided track has clearly pronounced chords. Your piano version - it is a more complex rendition of that track.

 

[Acoop]

Big arrangements like those are hard to pick out clear changes because there's so much happening. ... Find a trio version. ... I heard that it starts the melody as a -2, 5, 1, -6, and repeats that till it goes to the 4, and then I got bored. ...
Sounds to me like you need to start working on understanding 'song form'. ... Basic song form is 1, 4, 5. ... Advanced song is 1, 4, 5 with all the chord variations, major/minor/alternative and key changes that resolve back to the original key. ... Try sitting down at the piano and learn to play through Jazz standards you'll eventually find it there.

 

[Matthew_84]

I have listened to your provided track on iPhone; therefore, no details.
That arrangement requires you to hear and discern minor and major chords.
You should know and recognize a pedal point in the bass, secondary dominant chords, etc.
The track doesn’t complex chords - it’s good.
I would start with the simple bass line of the recording which mostly indicates the roots, just remember about that pedal point in some spots.

Yeah that pedal point didn’t help in my “I can’t hear the changes” frustrations. There was one section where it feels like it goes on for like 8 bars with little to no variance, lol

 

[mambo4]

More common patterns in jazz harmony from Rick Beato at his least click-baity:

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I’m trying to dig deep into jazz, and I’m trying to do it the most recommended way (learn a song by ear and be able to sing it before you try to play it). I know I could just look up a chord sheet, but I really want to engrain it into my head (as well as work on my ear and my general musicianship, which are both lacklustre)....I’d imagine doing interval and chord ear training would help...

Yes. When you're learning to play (for example) basketball, you don't just jump in and start playing games. There's basic physical training stuff (running laps, sprints, stop/start drills, etc.), there's technical stuff (learning layups, passing with either hand, shooting with either hand, jump shots, hooks, etc.) , parameterized approach to play (running set rehearsed patterns/plays) and then actual "practice" play (scrimmages). All before you set foot on the court for an actual game. So why think that should be any different for playing this music?

The first song I’m trying to learn is “Alone Together” and I’m specifically working on the Artie Shaw version.

Are you trying to learn the tune or are you trying to transcribe the arrangement? Big band versions of tunes tend to have a lot of "filler" that has little to do with the tune-as-composed. Plus, Artie is embellishing the melody so much that it's not the best way to learn the melody-as-composed. Find a good singer (like this) to pull the melody. And for the changes try to listen to as many small group versions to build consensus over 1.what are the most common changes used 2. which have the most personal appeal for you. Number one is important because folks like Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett are going to have a different approach than Teddy Wilson and Errol Garner.

Does anyone have any tips on how to do this, or exercises to work on so that I can get better at this?

Yes. In addition to the REALLY Learning a Tune thread, get some of the Jamey Aebersold books/playalongs of standards (check the track listings for the song titles and pick the ones that appeal, I'd recommend staying away from the specific artist/composer for right now). When you get them don't look at the book!, take the playalong recording and LISTEN to the changes. You can even pan the balance so that ALL you are hearing is either the piano and drums or bass and drums. FIRST, with bass in hand (or at the piano) try to establish what the root movement is (not what notes the piano or bass are playing, what the ROOT is). You'll have several choruses of the tune to hunt and peck till you find the roots. Once you can play through the form of one chorus of the tune, start trying to determine (again with instrument in hand) what the chord quality is. Is it major or minor? If it's major, is it major7, dominant 7, augmented? If minor, does it have the minor 7th or is it a tonic minor with the major7th? Is it diminished or half diminished (min7b5)? Some of this can be intellectually inferred (if you have a good grounding in functional harmony) i.e. if you have a root movement of D to G to C and you can hear that the D is a minor 7 chord, it's almost a given that the G with be a G7 and the C will be a Cmaj7 or Cmaj6. But all of this REALLY needs to be augmented with an ear training regimen that has you identifying and singing all the intervals in two octaves (i.e. singing both the 2nd AND the 9th etc.), triads in all inversions and open and closed positions, 4 parts in all inversions and in open and closed positions. I've outlined the approach I got from my teacher in a couple of places here at TB.

Also, I want to learn how to do this so if I go to jam sessions and I don’t get a chord sheet, I can at least have a hope of figuring it out the song. Right now, there’s no way - Thanks again.

Some things you'll be able to hear, some you won't. But for standards from the Great American Songbook (Broadway, Cole Porter, etc.) there are a few questions to ask whoever REALLY knows the tune:
1. what key is it in (for ALONE TOGETHER it's D minor)
2.what's the first chord (for ALONE TOGETHER it's the tonic minor)
3. is there a bridge (or is the form ABAC or something altogether different) , if so where does the bridge go (for ALONE TOGETHER it goes to the iv chord)
4 what's the first chord of the bridge (for ALONE TOGETHER the first chord of the bridge is ii of iv or A half diminished)

Someone should give you a head's up if the form is outside a standard 32 bar tune or (for something like WAY YOU LOOK TONIGHT)if the form on the melody is maintained throughout blowing or if the form is truncated to make the blowing form a more standard length.


But, in all seriousness, if you're at a jam session and don't know the tune that's called, you really shouldn't be trying to play it. Let somebody who knows the tune play it, listen hard, go home and have it down by next week.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Yes. I'm just now getting into this 32-bar change thing. No one told me this until a week or so ago. I never connected the dots, and no one in the bands I played with ever talked about AABA suggested chord progressions.

Yes, I understood AABA, as it relates to verse progression, but I never knew there was a chord pattern that can be inserted into AABA. We used AABAB and tag the last line all the time for a song format, but, missed the part about predictable chord progressions.

As you mention the more I get into this the fog seems to clear up.

I don't think this means what you think it means. Just because two tunes are a 32 bar AABA format DOES NOT MEAN THAT CHORD PROGRESSIONS ARE INTERCHANGEABLE.

Please tell me you didn't think that.
Please.

 

[Malcolm35]

I don't think this means what you think it means. Just because two tunes are a 32 bar AABA floormat DOES NOT MEAN THAT CHORD PROGRESSIONS ARE INTERCHANGEABLE. Please tell me you didn't think that. Please.

That was where I was headed. Yes I understand its not cookie cutter. For example:

• Blues in C will stick pretty close to the established 12 bar blues progression. Yes there are "things" that can be thrown in, like a quick IV or the last line ends with a turn-a-round or a V-I resolution.
• A Classic Country song will probably be I-IV-V-I. Two verses, a chorus, another verse, chorus again, and tag the last line. AABAB.
• First line of the Country classic will start with the I chord and somewhere toward the last of the first line move to the IV. IV continues into the second line and toward the end of the second line the V or V7 chord is inserted.
• That gives you a V-I resolution for the first two lines and then this is repeated in the last two lines of a four line verse.
• An introduction could be the leading chord's pentatonic till you reach the V note and that pulls you into the starting I chord.
• I am looking for Patterns that repeat and can be used to give you a dirt simple, work most of the time answer to what chord is next..

I'm still working on the 32 bar progression for I've Got Rhythm, but it looks like the bare bone skeleton does offer a pattern that could be used in other songs.

Welcome your comments.

 

[Matthew_84]

Yes. When you're learning to play (for example) basketball, you don't just jump in and start playing games. There's basic physical training stuff (running laps, sprints, stop/start drills, etc.), there's technical stuff (learning layups, passing with either hand, shooting with either hand, jump shots, hooks, etc.) , parameterized approach to play (running set rehearsed patterns/plays) and then actual "practice" play (scrimmages). All before you set foot on the court for an actual game. So why think that should be any different for playing this music?


Are you trying to learn the tune or are you trying to transcribe the arrangement? Big band versions of tunes tend to have a lot of "filler" that has little to do with the tune-as-composed. Plus, Artie is embellishing the melody so much that it's not the best way to learn the melody-as-composed. Find a good singer (like this) to pull the melody. And for the changes try to listen to as many small group versions to build consensus over 1.what are the most common changes used 2. which have the most personal appeal for you. Number one is important because folks like Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett are going to have a different approach than Teddy Wilson and Errol Garner.



Yes. In addition to the REALLY Learning a Tune thread, get some of the Jamey Aebersold books/playalongs of standards (check the track listings for the song titles and pick the ones that appeal, I'd recommend staying away from the specific artist/composer for right now). When you get them don't look at the book!, take the playalong recording and LISTEN to the changes. You can even pan the balance so that ALL you are hearing is either the piano and drums or bass and drums. FIRST, with bass in hand (or at the piano) try to establish what the root movement is (not what notes the piano or bass are playing, what the ROOT is). You'll have several choruses of the tune to hunt and peck till you find the roots. Once you can play through the form of one chorus of the tune, start trying to determine (again with instrument in hand) what the chord quality is. Is it major or minor? If it's major, is it major7, dominant 7, augmented? If minor, does it have the minor 7th or is it a tonic minor with the major7th? Is it diminished or half diminished (min7b5)? Some of this can be intellectually inferred (if you have a good grounding in functional harmony) i.e. if you have a root movement of D to G to C and you can hear that the D is a minor 7 chord, it's almost a given that the G with be a G7 and the C will be a Cmaj7 or Cmaj6. But all of this REALLY needs to be augmented with an ear training regimen that has you identifying and singing all the intervals in two octaves (i.e. singing both the 2nd AND the 9th etc.), triads in all inversions and open and closed positions, 4 parts in all inversions and in open and closed positions. I've outlined the approach I got from my teacher in a couple of places here at TB.





Some things you'll be able to hear, some you won't. But for standards from the Great American Songbook (Broadway, Cole Porter, etc.) there are a few questions to ask whoever REALLY knows the tune:
1. what key is it in (for ALONE TOGETHER it's D minor)
2.what's the first chord (for ALONE TOGETHER it's the tonic minor)
3. is there a bridge (or is the form ABAC or something altogether different) , if so where does the bridge go (for ALONE TOGETHER it goes to the iv chord)
4 what's the first chord of the bridge (for ALONE TOGETHER the first chord of the bridge is ii of iv or A half diminished)

Someone should give you a head's up if the form is outside a standard 32 bar tune or (for something like WAY YOU LOOK TONIGHT)if the form on the melody is maintained throughout blowing or if the form is truncated to make the blowing form a more standard length.


But, in all seriousness, if you're at a jam session and don't know the tune that's called, you really shouldn't be trying to play it. Let somebody who knows the tune play it, listen hard, go home and have it down by next week.

I really, really appreciate your level of detail here Ed! I kind of feel bad that I'm not responding with a similarly lengthy response (I feel like it's disrespectful not to), but your response is so in-depth it doesn't really require any questions!

I certainly was trying to learn the arrangement though, not the tune. I made a foolish assumption that because this was one of the earliest recorded versions of the song, that it would be the most straight-forward... I was wrong, LOL! Lesson learned! I will listen to the vocal performance you linked soon, and will work on learning the tune. Once I have that down, I'll listen to some of the other versions I liked to better understand how others interpreted/embellished it.

You also provided great general tips that I will work on to be a better musician.

Thank you again Ed!

 

[mambo4]

I think the comparison to blues is apt. Many blues will follow the 12 bar blues pattern, some with variation. But there is also 8 and 16 bar blues, as well as countless "blues-ish" songs that borrow parts of the standard 12 bar pattern but then go off into new territory.

Rhythm changes and the 32 bar AABA form discussion @Malcolm35 posted about should be viewed similarly in relation to Jazz. Many (but not all) standards are 32 bar AABA songs. Many standards are use some (but not all) of the chord progressions represented in the rhythm changes.

Every style is an evolving family tree of recurring musical patterns.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I think you should start with an easier, more straightforward tune. And there's nothing wrong with looking at the chords while you work through a song.

The problem I've noticed with people who try to learn jazz on their own, is they start way way over their head before they actually know anything about it

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I'm still working on the 32 bar progression for I've Got Rhythm, but it looks like the bare bone skeleton does offer a pattern that could be used in other songs. Welcome your comments.

That particular progression will only be used "in other songs" that are built on I GOT RYHTHM changes. Yes, there are other compositions that use the I vi ii V and are 32 bars, but if you try to shoehorn the rest of the IGR changes into the tune IT WILL NOT WORK. Again again again again - it's not about intellectually anticipating what you think is going to happen you've got to hear harmonic function. And hear what's actually happening.

Take a nice 32 bar AABA tune like HAVE YOU MET MISS JONES. Opens up similarly I vi ii V in F (generally) Fmaj 7 D-7 G-7 C7. Oh but wait, it's not 2 beats per chord, each chord lasts a full bar, so you'r already barking up the wrong tree. Next 8 bar phrase Fma7 D-7 oh we must be doing the same thing again. Nope, next 2 changes are C-7 F7. Etc etc

So again, for the cheap seats - 32 bar AABA DOES NOT EQUAL I Got Rhythm changes.

 

[bass12]

Just wondering, do you (Matthew) know anything about chord functions? This, to me, would be the first thing to look at. I’d also recommend you get a copy of Mark Levine’s Jazz Theory book if you don’t already have it.