HELP! Someone is trying to mic my cab tonight!

[JimmyM]

How / what did you do to make the DI sound like a mic'd version?

A lot of different things…a Reddi or PF50t with high and low pass filtering being the most common. Haven’t played much in the last year but I just got a V7 head with an SVT cab sim built in so I’ll likely start using that.

 

[agedhorse]

Yeah I don't disagree with any of that really. I wasn't trying to say "if the sound guy won't mic your cab it's because he sucks at doing sound" but I can see how it could be taken that way. My point was more that it's generally not worth arguing with them about.

For me personally, I use a bunch of effects, a cab with no tweeter, and a vintage tube amp that I push into some amount of breakup. If you take a DI straight off the bass the FOH guy might get what he thinks is the appropriate sound (DI P Bass with flats) but that will be very different than what the music is actually supposed to sound like.

So there are compromises between the two approaches you mentioned above... what about taking it post effects, or in the case of a vintage tube amp post power amp via a speaker level DI between the amp and the speaker? What about a combination of DI and mic, adding in t he mic (or DI) as needed to get the job done?

I will go on stage and listen to the bass from the player's perspective and translate this out to the FOH mix (which the player can't possible hear within the context to the room and the PA). I never had any issues getting the job done to the satisfaction of the tour manager or band leader doing it this way, and I'm talking about thousands of shows over 40 years.

 

[rockear]

So there are compromises between the two approaches you mentioned above... what about taking it post effects, or in the case of a vintage tube amp post power amp via a speaker level DI between the amp and the speaker? What about a combination of DI and mic, adding in t he mic (or DI) as needed to get the job done?

I will go on stage and listen to the bass from the player's perspective and translate this out to the FOH mix (which the player can't possible hear within the context to the room and the PA). I never had any issues getting the job done to the satisfaction of the tour manager or band leader doing it this way, and I'm talking about thousands of shows over 40 years.

Totally valid. I've had FOH people do both of those approaches and I assume they sounded good. Like you say, it's kind of impossible to tell from the stage. I will say that the type of shows and venues I have played, they mostly aren't employing someone of your ability and experience to run the board.

For me, the easiest thing is to say "Hey I use a bunch of effects so I brought a mic for the bass amp, does that work for you?" Almost always the answer is yes. And if I have a chance to talk to them after the show I'll ask them how it worked out, and they'll almost always say it was great.

 

[Norm Nelson]

Last big gig I had they took my DI and mic'ed the cab. Sounded great, though I think I was more forward in the mix than was probably right. Not that I'm complaining ... but that said, 20 posts in and nobody's made an Elton John reference? "Someone mic'ed my cab tonight, sennheiserrrr; almost had your DI in me, din'tcha dear ..."

 

[Boneless]

If you have the channels and a digital mixer (in practice), you can easily get both the cab and DI, and lowpass/high-pass them so as to get the cab sound from one and the treble from the other, possibly to mute when not needed/detrimental.

 

[agedhorse]

If you have the channels and a digital mixer (in practice), you can easily get both the cab and DI, and lowpass/high-pass them so as to get the cab sound from one and the treble from the other, possibly to mute when not needed/detrimental.

Or the low frequency extension from the DI and the body of the tone from the cabinet (provided there's no tweeter involved).

IME, the most common way in the touring industry is to start with the DI full range, and add some cabinet to taste... sometimes compressing the DI a bit to fit into the mix a little better. Then again, there are others who start with the cabinet and add the DI but IME this is less reliable under the constraints of keeping a sound check moving along.

 

[agedhorse]

Last big gig I had they took my DI and mic'ed the cab. Sounded great, though I think I was more forward in the mix than was probably right. Not that I'm complaining ... but that said, 20 posts in and nobody's made an Elton John reference? "Someone mic'ed my cab tonight, sennheiserrrr; almost had your DI in me, din'tcha dear ..."

Someone had to bring up Sugar Bear didn't they

 

[s_wood]

My favorite live or recorded bass tone has always involved a blend of a mic’ed cab and a DI. Like Andy pointed out above, the mic won’t capture the high freqs from my tweeter, so the full range tone must come from the DI. Assuming a competent engineer, my approach is to ask for a mic’ed cab and a DI, and then I ask the engineer to blend those 2 sources to make me sound good. The rest is up to the engineer.

 

[agedhorse]

There is also no single perfect bass tone, it may also need to vary from what is “desired as ideal” to fit the mix and room acoustics.

Live audio at the pro level involves managing many compromises of the parts for the greater benefit of the whole. That’s why we get paid the big money, if it was easy more folks could do it well.

 

[fdeck]

It’s not the end of the world, but if you have a tweeter as part of your tone, that will be absent in the mic’d signal.

Or a port.

 

[Azari]

Looks like you have some nice gear.
Don’t you stress and obsess about every detail of your sound? The sound that comes out of your speakers? Your DI doesn’t sound like that. No DI sounds like that, ever. Sounds like the sound guy was looking out for you instead of trying to short cut. I bet no sound tech has ever tried to DI that Marshall half stack Ever in the same 20 years.

Meanwhile me: obsessing over my DI tone..

 

[Lo-E]

Yes most of your dedicated "kick drum" mics are all voiced more or less like the graph. Not the best to capture the natural full sound of a cabinet.

I strongly dislike kick drum mics on bass cabinets. In fact, I don’t even like kick drum mics on kick drums most of the time.

I play mostly in small venues in NYC where I’m usually using house backline. Sometimes it’s just a house cab with my head, other times it’s a whole house rig. Along with that, the quality of the house PA is different everywhere and the capability of the house engineer is a complete crap-shoot. Some house engineers in NYC clubs are really great. Some aren’t.

Even though I used to mix sound for a wide range of venues, from small clubs to giant outdoor festivals, I figured out long ago that most engineers in smaller NYC clubs are going to do things the way they want to do things - which means whatever’s easiest for them to get through five bands a night the most efficient way possible. I don’t really blame them so I just ask them how they’d prefer to get my signal and I accommodate them as best I can.

Is it “my tone”? Sh*t, I don’t know…. When you use house backline most of the time, what’s “your tone “, exactly? I just try to play the best show I can and use the amp to get a stage tone that allows me and the band to hear me clearly. If the house engineer is laid back and friendly I might make a suggestion or ask them to aim for a particular tone but, most of the time I just let them do their job and try to be gracious.

 

[edervjo]

This is one of my pet peeves…sound techs who don’t want to do it your way. Personally I’m thrilled when I get a mic, but the entire reason I stopped is because of occasional resistance. So I resorted to making my DI line sound like a mic’ed amp. Mic me or DI me, you get the same sound.

But if you want a DI, you should be able to get one, especially since the 902 has a fairly hefty mid scoop.

Same hear, I have been screwed over by house di boxes, house mics, now either way, they get what I sound like. Though I will say, with a Crest CA9 and a 2x15 rig, I don’t always need the house’s help.

 

[logdrum]

That is a big guy next to the Marshall

 

[Happy Face]

Not live, but in the studio where I've been a hired gun on some projects. The engineer, who i like and respect, always uses both.

And in line with the Ancient Horse's admonition about missing a tweeters signal, he actually uses two mics when I play through an old Versatone with a 12" and 8" speaker in separate compartments.

 

[agedhorse]

Same hear, I have been screwed over by house di boxes, house mics, now either way, they get what I sound like. Though I will say, with a Crest CA9 and a 2x15 rig, I don’t always need the house’s help.

I'm sure you make a lot of friends with that rig covering the room... how does the mix sound on stage and do you wear hearing protection?

Who needs a house DI, don't you have your own or at least a preamp with a good DI built in?

 

[Jazzzed]

The signal coming off the DI is dry and round. The mic contains the attack. The sound guys will typically mix a little of both.

 

[RevOgre]

It’s not the end of the world, but if you have a tweeter as part of your tone, that will be absent in the mic’d signal.

Also from the DI signal right?

 

[tom-g]

Also from the DI signal right?

No, the DI signal is full range.

 

[Hot Rats]

I played a nice art gallery gig and the sound guy asked me if I wanted my sound direct or mic'd so I went with mic'd. It had been so long since I had that done I was all giddy.