HELP! Someone is trying to mic my cab tonight!

[dabis]

Not needing help, justa a clickbait. It’s been 20 years since the last time anyone mic’ed my cab. “I’m american school” he have just told me.
He seems to prefeer the Sennheiser e902 against the Aguilar TH DI.

 

[rickdog]

How did it sound?

For me, I prefer a mic on the cab over a dry DI. I played at a small outdoor festival last summer, they wanted to mic my cab rather than take the (excellent) DI off my amp. I was dubious, they were adamant, it wasn't worth fighting over. They put up some off-brand condenser mic.

My rig was backline for the weekend, so I got to hear it out front. Sounded awesome. I need to find out what that "cheap" mic was. I might want one for my bag of tricks....

 

[gtirard]

Funny, it happened to me recently (in september), and the sound guy was a trainee. I guess it's something they have to learn at school, and they want to practice their lesson? We had a great sound that night, but since he also took a DI out, I don't know how much of the mic he kept in the mix.

Looking at your photo, I thought the mic shouldn't be aimed at the center of the driver?

 

[Killing Floor]

Looks like you have some nice gear.
Don’t you stress and obsess about every detail of your sound? The sound that comes out of your speakers? Your DI doesn’t sound like that. No DI sounds like that, ever. Sounds like the sound guy was looking out for you instead of trying to short cut. I bet no sound tech has ever tried to DI that Marshall half stack Ever in the same 20 years.

 

[rockear]

I like my amp and pedals so much I bring my own mic (Heil PR40), stand, and cable to every gig. I've never had a sound person insist on a DI, and I've gotten a few comments that the sound from the mic is better to work with. Especially if you're running an octave pedal or a gnarly fuzz or anything that drastically changes your sound, the amp and mic kinda takes the edge off that signal.

 

[rickdog]

I've gotten a few comments that the sound from the mic is better to work with.

I think that may be especially true in a festival situation, with quick changes between acts and possibly a variety of amps. The signal levels from the amp DIs may be all over the place (mic level to line level and everywhere in between), the mic is going to be about the same (assuming the stage volume is about the same).

 

[agedhorse]

It’s not the end of the world, but if you have a tweeter as part of your tone, that will be absent in the mic’d signal.

 

[rockear]

Yeah for sure the mic used will have its own characteristics that make the sound a bit more predictable between amps. For instance the PR40 has a long straight rolloff of low frequencies below about 80Hz, so if one guy has a P through an old tube amp, and the next has a 1000 watt class D and an active bass with all the knobs set to 10, a lot of that unusable low end is never making it past the mic. I personally don't use cabs with tweeters but that's a good point @agedhorse.

 

[JimmyM]

This is one of my pet peeves…sound techs who don’t want to do it your way. Personally I’m thrilled when I get a mic, but the entire reason I stopped is because of occasional resistance. So I resorted to making my DI line sound like a mic’ed amp. Mic me or DI me, you get the same sound.

But if you want a DI, you should be able to get one, especially since the 902 has a fairly hefty mid scoop.

 

[rockear]

This is one of my pet peeves…sound techs who don’t want to do it your way.

I agree with that. I also feel like if they don't want to do it my way, it's probably because they don't have the skill to make it sound good, so I'm probably better off letting them do what they can do. Running sound is hard and not everyone who does it is great at it. Some are just sticks-in-the-mud too, of course.

 

[David Morison]

@JimmyM isn't joking about the mid scoop.

That's the baseline frequency response of the E902; there's ~23dB difference between 700Hz and 5kHz. "Fairly Hefty" may indeed be an understatement.
But that's not all - note that that's measured with the mic at 1metre (3' 3 3/16" for the metrically challenged) from the source.
Put the mic closer (as is almost universal, and clearly shown in the OP's pic) and proximity effect will raise the lows below a few hundred Hz by several dB, exaggerating the scooped mids even further.
Then add the loss of high frequencies if your playing style makes use of the tweeter as agedhorse highlighted.
If that's what you want, roll with it, but be prepared for FOH to sound nothing like your cab.

Good luck,
D.

 

[BezzarBass]

This is one of my pet peeves…sound techs who don’t want to do it your way. Personally I’m thrilled when I get a mic, but the entire reason I stopped is because of occasional resistance. So I resorted to making my DI line sound like a mic’ed amp. Mic me or DI me, you get the same sound.

But if you want a DI, you should be able to get one, especially since the 902 has a fairly hefty mid scoop.

How / what did you do to make the DI sound like a mic'd version?

 

[Pings Bass]

When I started digital recording I was amused by the amp sims that give you a choice of cabs as well as mics. Man, I have never wanted a mic to be part of my bass sound, and I never will.

DI for me from day one, and as clean and pure as I can get it on stage. Litmus test for me: can you hear the notes? I didn't want no stinking speaker or microphone getting in the way of that!

 

[andruca]

I'm the single preset tone kinda' guy in the bands I (occasionally) gig with. The sound guy I work with the most likes to mic my amp (usually Zoom MS-60B into good old Peavey TNT-150) with an AKG D112. Always likes that better than the DI I also always send. I've long abandoned the technique in the studio. Sometimes I wonder if I'm not missing something with so much fancy preamping, emulation, IR, etc. It's good to rely on good old trusty mics often, I usually go from Kemper to mics when working with guitars, even if I end up using 100% Kemper signal, it sorta' resets my ears' parameters With bass OTOH, I have certain chains I use that work OK, so I haven't miked a bass amp for recording since forever, but often wonder if I should.

 

[agedhorse]

I agree with that. I also feel like if they don't want to do it my way, it's probably because they don't have the skill to make it sound good, so I'm probably better off letting them do what they can do. Running sound is hard and not everyone who does it is great at it. Some are just sticks-in-the-mud too, of course.

OR, they are aware of the pitfalls of micing a cabinet and are doing their best to avoid those pitfalls compromising the overall mix. This is especially true when the tweeter is an important part of what the player hears on stage, or when the player is running a 115 and a 210 for example.

With my experience as a long time FOH engineer in the touring act world, it's often better (not necessarily easier) to get an unadulterated signal that you can then work with at FOH, with the tools that we have available, while listening to the bass in the context of the mix, the PA and the room. I worked in large rooms mostly (1000+ seats) and the sound of the bass in the house just off the stage sounded NOTHING like what it sounded like where the player stood, just due to the acoustic environment. The player couldn't make any judgement about what the bass sounded like out front, even without the PA.

 

[Geri O]

I guess some sound folks never heard of taking ( or asking if they could) BOTH a DI AND a mic for bass?….

The idea being to take the best of both and mix them together.

Sometimes it works that way, sometimes it’s best to take the better of the two.

Oh….

When I’m playing, it’s the sound guy’s call. I’m almost always IEMs and really listening to the cab, as good as it is. Just about all the sound guys prefer the tone of my Khan tube DI that I carry everywhere. Singularly…..

 

[rockear]

OR, they are aware of the pitfalls of micing a cabinet and are doing their best to avoid those pitfalls compromising the overall mix.

Yeah I don't disagree with any of that really. I wasn't trying to say "if the sound guy won't mic your cab it's because he sucks at doing sound" but I can see how it could be taken that way. My point was more that it's generally not worth arguing with them about.

For me personally, I use a bunch of effects, a cab with no tweeter, and a vintage tube amp that I push into some amount of breakup. If you take a DI straight off the bass the FOH guy might get what he thinks is the appropriate sound (DI P Bass with flats) but that will be very different than what the music is actually supposed to sound like.

 

[GreyBeard]

It has been my experience that you will get a lot closer sound of your amp when you mic your cab than when you send a direct feed from a DI. The DI tone I get out of the fronts is usually too "HI FI-ISH" and lacking a lot of mid-range. It really all depends on the FoH tech and how well they can mix the bass guitar with the drums and other instruments. A few times I've had them do both mic and DI, it was the best sound I ever got from the FoH.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

This is one of my pet peeves…sound techs who don’t want to do it your way. Personally I’m thrilled when I get a mic, but the entire reason I stopped is because of occasional resistance. So I resorted to making my DI line sound like a mic’ed amp. Mic me or DI me, you get the same sound.

But if you want a DI, you should be able to get one, especially since the 902 has a fairly hefty mid scoop.

@JimmyM isn't joking about the mid scoop.

View attachment 7121821

That's the baseline frequency response of the E902; there's ~23dB difference between 700Hz and 5kHz. "Fairly Hefty" may indeed be an understatement.
But that's not all - note that that's measured with the mic at 1metre (3' 3 3/16" for the metrically challenged) from the source.
Put the mic closer (as is almost universal, and clearly shown in the OP's pic) and proximity effect will raise the lows below a few hundred Hz by several dB, exaggerating the scooped mids even further.
Then add the loss of high frequencies if your playing style makes use of the tweeter as agedhorse highlighted.
If that's what you want, roll with it, but be prepared for FOH to sound nothing like your cab.

Good luck,
D.

Yes most of your dedicated "kick drum" mics are all voiced more or less like the graph. Not the best to capture the natural full sound of a cabinet.

 

[Boneless]

Funny, it happened to me recently (in september), and the sound guy was a trainee. I guess it's something they have to learn at school, and they want to practice their lesson? We had a great sound that night, but since he also took a DI out, I don't know how much of the mic he kept in the mix.

Looking at your photo, I thought the mic shouldn't be aimed at the center of the driver?

On the contrary, that's where it should be aimed, technically, if you want the least coloured micing of your cab. (Assuming you can get an uncoloured micing of your cab).