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Double Bass Here I GO!

#61
Oh, I AM having fun with it! :) have nothing to loose and everything to gain! Those Vids of Ray made me look at the instrument from a whole new perspective..

When I learned EB at the age of 13, my teacher would hold his hand over my fingers to keep me from moving them off the fretboard too much. I had a "zone" that was acceptable. He also taught me that minimal hand movement, (up, down and across) maximizes your fingering efforts.

The other thing he did was, from lesson ONE.. was to have the last 5 minutes of our lesson open to a song I heard on the radio, and tried to learn.. I think Spinning Wheels (E W and F) was the first I got close. Love that Funk/ R&B!

Off topic.. Bob Babbitt is my muse. James was a great player, but something Bob does speaks to me. I digress..

Watching Ray.. He pretty much sits on a stool and lays his Bass on his lap. I've been standing off to the side of my UB.. I practiced scales tonight standing behind the UB. It felt much better on my hand, and I tried to stay on the (back of the neck) center thumb position. It worked!

Truth be known.. I felt like an outcast on this BB because of the path I've taken. I'm learning on a super cheap Chinese Bass. Beyond that, I'm trying to make it work in a loud R&R band for 8 of the 60 tunes we'll play in a night. The towel, (I have mike wrapped in foam) shoved under the tail piece was one of the BEST nuggets of wisdom I got to keep this project moving.

I've been honest with everything I've posted, and after playing the Kay.. there are WAY better UB's out there.

Seeing the Ray Vid series helped crack that a bit more..

And remembering my first EB teacher brings me back to a collective foundation, to attack the UB with a good set of roots, a good sense of technique, and a bit of experience playing EB for 32 years.

I'm looking forward hacking my UB a bit more to make it work me.

Thanks for the input!

Robin
 
#62
My first bass cost $270 local pick up and was said to be made in Indonesia. It looked brand new and had a gig bag and bow. I bought it so my teen aged neighbor who wanted to learn bass could have one. He learned well and the bass was played somewhere at least once a week. This year I decided to upgrade to something that had a better arco. From research, I knew I needed to stay with a laminate because I'm in Texas playing inside and outside in various temperatures. I wanted old for the sound. I wanted to keep the price at $1000 if possible. One bass that pretty much met my needs and price was in driving distance. It's an Anton Schuster and I bought it. Now, remember, when I went to buy the bass, I wasn't the player. The minute my hand went around the neck, it was a perfect fit and I knew I wanted to learn. Which I am happily doing. I sold the first bass which was pretty beat up for $225. My point being that if the bass is cheap enough, you have a good chance of getting most of your money back. Secondly, if you aren't turned off by the cheap instrument, and that is a danger, it could open the door for a lot of fun. My neighbor certainly enjoyed it. The other obvious point is that if the instrument fits you and you can afford it, buy it. I got serious when I met my Schuster.

For the record, I did have a dream bass - I wanted an old American Standard. However, when I played one with my very limited skills, I discovered I had trouble with what little fingering I knew. I think the AS are 7/8 and that is too big for me. The Schuster is a 41 string length and it seems that my fingers just naturally fall in the right places.

Keep on having fun. Sometimes we back in the door or come in the back door. I don't think it matters as long as we get in.
 
#63
mlz77096 said:
...My point being that if the bass is cheap enough, you have a good chance of getting most of your money back.
Click to expand...


A nice story and I agree with most of the thoughts except for this one. It is usually the very cheap basses on which you cannot get your money back. Generally, they have poor resale value-- that is if they don't implode first. I'd actually say the opposite, namely, that if the bass is expensive enough (and of corresponding quality) you have a good chance of getting your money back. The danger of getting turned off by a cheap instrument lies in the fact that most of them will fight your progress every step of the way. I'm a fan of putting the best possible instrument (within reason) into the hands of a beginner. None of this is meant to detract from the wonderful gesture you made toward your neighbor. Bravo to you! Rather, I'm speaking about general principles.
 
#64
I agree with you, that a person's chances are good at getting their money back on an expensive bass, especially an older one. I don't see them devalue if the bass was any good in the first place. I was probably just lucky with the first bass. We did take it to a luthier to have it set up and lowering the action was all he said it needed. And, it sounded OK for Old Time. It was church music and the arco that spurred the upgrade.
 
#66
RobinG said:
Oh, I AM having fun with it! :) have nothing to loose and everything to gain!

Robin
Click to expand...
It took till I was 65 to find the moment to start playing rather than listening to music...3 years ago I started fiddle lessons with a friend who plays Irish sessions but although I surprised myself by learning to play the tunes I could not get to play at a speed that would allow me to play in the sessions and thats what i wanted to do, play music with other people.
He suggested one day that playing a double bass might ease the speed problem and would be an interesting addition to the Irish scene.
So I did the unthinkable(although I had no way of knowing that's what I was doing...ah well ignorance is bliss sometimes)and bought a cheapo chinese bass off the net...£400 delivered with all the trimmings.I sold the hard case that it came with(it had a soft case too) for £90 and started my bass journey.
Where has it taken me, then,in the last amazing 12 months?.. well..
- i've played in local Irish sessions and had a ball trying to find the way to fit me and my bass into the jigs and reels along with the mug of Guiness
- i've played at dances and weddings...even one wedding on the beach with just me and my fiddler mate
- i've played one of the main stages at the Glastonbury Festival (probably the largest performing arts festival in the world)
-at Easter this year i'll be being taught for a week by Danny Thompson (one of our UK bass legends)
-through a kindness given I met a Russian classically trained bass player who voluntarily repaid the kindness by giving me tuition in technique that took me through all 24 major/minor scales and showed me how to begin to get more out of my instrument...as there is a scarcity of bass teachers/players in this far corner of England i have had to find my own way mostly.
- i'm now in the process of building my very own bass...and learning and learning more and more about these fabulous instruments as i do. This is not only the only way that i could afford to upgrade fom my chinese partner but also the most satisfying way as well.

My cheap old friend has never let me down...she's allowed me to take her to pieces and explore her intimate recesses and has always responded by being all the better for it...she hasn't minded going along for the ride with me even though it has meant being squashed in the back of a Peugeot 205 for the trip(and they're small i tell you).

all of this made possible because i didn't know any better than to buy what i could afford to buy...i grant you that it could have all gone pearshaped the minute I strung the basss up, but it didn't...that's life for you !!!!
 
#67
Robin and Chris,
thanks for sharing your stories. Your journeys are fun to read, and not marred by talkbass troll shouts "get a teacher", "only get an expensive bass", "never work on a bass yourself". As Robin wrote, that makes him almost feel like an outcast, but I suspect more adult bass players have experiences similar to yours. Mine certainly is.

We have a reason to play and goals that are usually well within reach through teaching yourself on a very basic instruments - R&B licks that Robin already knew on the slab, accompanying session tunes that Chris could play slowly on the fiddle, and I suspect lots of bluegrass as well (I got two neighbors picking up the upright bass, one plays now several gigs a week). I doubt too many adult beginners ever pick up an upright with the purpose of regaling the audience in a sold out concert hall with Bottesini. Outdoor festivals, pubs, pizza parlors, jams are going to be our stomping ground (and I suspect our audience appreciates more what we do than they would a Bottesini concerto - maybe there even is a reason for that?). And given our technically much more modest goals, teaching yourself on a similarly modest bass will be just fine.

My first bass was a cheap Chinese in the 1980s when I was in graduate school. At that point, I mainly played jazz guitar, but when I saw a lonely bass in a small music store in Northern California, whose only role in life so far was a prop in an American Express commercial, well, I gave it a try. I could tell that is was playable and sounded like a bass and that was good enough for me. Sure, the back was shrinking, the seller warned me, but that's no big deal, just glue it back together once in a while (which I did a few times). At that price - just like Robin's experience - experimenting is fine. Lower downside risk than on any car, probably more like fixing a leaking faucet yourself. No need to call the most experienced and highly recommended (multiple certificates of European training!) plumber for that. Of course, that's what you do for yourself when you are an adult, if you don't play and choose an instrument for a child, that's not the route to take.

I had played guitar for about 15 years and played jazz gigs then, but the big surprise for me was that guitar (or bg) technique is not transferable because of the stretches. So that took some rethinking and getting some books. Something you can teach yourself, though. It was an active jazz scene on campus and Fred Spitz and Larry Grenadier were two of the bassists I played with, so I had an idea of how good bass playing should sound. Larry, of course, went on to become on of the big name professional jazz bassists.

Eventually, one of the big earthquakes hit and my Chinese clunker got smashed. But by then, I had a better idea about basses, more money, and upgraded to a Czech hybrid (which I still have as my bar/outdoor bass). And the road went up from there and my main bass now would crack the 5-digit $ range.

But would I recommend buying the most expensive instrument you can afford? Nope, what I would recommend to an adult beginner with some other instrument experience is: Go find a playable cheapo to see how you like it, it was a few years before I even drifted towards the bass as my main instrument, no point in spending too much on something you won't stick with (but it has to playable so you can stick with it). And if you have basic wood working skills and like doing that, it can even be not so playable. Fun to fix it up. I don't have any wood working skills to speak off, but I have set up fiddles and they work just fine. I would stay away from home surgery on a collectable or high quality instrument, but an expensive instrument is where you end up after a few decades, not where you start.
 
#69
Marcus Johnson said:
That should go over well. I'm thinkin' four more pages at least. :smug:
Click to expand...

...and I'll start them. I agree that adventures into DB playing are not all or nothing. If you have modest goals, no one should dissuade you from just plain having fun. That being said, in my opinion, anyone seeking to play the DB should, if it is within his/her means, get a teacher. Even if it is just for one or two lessons to be guided toward proper technique and to avoid injury, having a teacher is of immense value. As has been discussed here many times, it is only the very rare talented individual who can excel solely on the basis of self-teaching.

Now, if one wishes to reach a level of accomplishment beyond the type of modest goals described earlier, for most of us mere mortals, a teacher is not only the more efficient way in terms of time (and even, perhaps, money), but it is really the only way.

As for the basses themselves, I don't recall anyone really arguing that an adult should buy the most expensive bass he/she can afford. I, for one, hold the opinion that one should buy the best bass (within reason) that one can afford keeping in mind the purpose for which the bass will be used. I absolutely would recommend against buying a cheapo to see how you like it. You may find that you don't like it, not because you don't like playing the DB, but because the cheapo bass fights your efforts and may be poorly set up. In addition, better instruments are just plain more enjoyable to play than cheapos even when setup is held constant. Given that most do not have substantial woodworking skills, the money spent on making a cheapo playable is usually largely wasted. This has also been discussed here many times.

So, here's what I'd recommend to an adult beginner. Start with a decent instrument (the variety of instruments/brands so often recommended in these threads) with a good setup. Steer well clear of cheapo instruments. Get a teacher even for one or two lessons to set you on the right path. This is the best a priori advice I can give. The fact that others have anecdotal (a posteriori) evidence of accomplishment by not doing so (or even the opposite) is hardly good reason to follow that path. Hey, I always recommend, a priori, that parents strap their toddlers into a car seat. The fact that, a posteriori, so many kids are alive having not had that protection is little reason to go that route.

I don't think this makes me, and others here who hold more extreme views, trolls. After all, a troll on these forums is someone who taunts others and disrupts and/or impedes the civil and intelligent exchange of ideas. Our opinions may differ and some of them may even be extreme but if they are offered sincerely and without malice, then those expressing them are not trolls
 
#70
Marcus Johnson said:
That should go over well. I'm thinkin' four more pages at least. :smug:
Click to expand...

Great, Let's bring out the popcorn, then.

Scatterblak actually tried to chase one back into his cave early in the thread (bottom of page 2).

Robin's blog deserves an occasional kick up to the top of the listing anyway, even if it's folks criticizing him for playing a cheap Chinese instrument, daring to work on it, teaching himself. And without repenting and self-flagellation!

By the way, Drurb last post is of course reasonable, and no fault in that logic. yep, selection bias is rampant in all success stories - as it is by the way in all failure stories or any other sampling based on the outcome. Actually, Drurb's post is so reasonable and mainstream that it is hard to disagree with (most of) it. But life gives you a wide variance and sometimes it is more interesting to hear about the variance than the politically correct canon.
 
#71
R Sturm said:
thanks for sharing your stories. Your journeys are fun to read, and not marred by talkbass troll shouts "get a teacher", "only get an expensive bass", "never work on a bass yourself". As Robin wrote, that makes him almost feel like an outcast, but I suspect more adult bass players have experiences similar to yours. Mine certainly is.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the comments. It's good to hear others' non-traditional stories, just to add relevance for players from different backgrounds.

My experience with DB was in high school, using an old blond bass in school musicals. My instruction on DB consisted of the teacher showing me how to pluck it so as not to raise blisters on the fingertips. I basically transitioned my knowledge of electric bass onto the DB, accommodating for obvious differences and practicing bow technique on a hit-or-miss basis. When I graduated I went to BG exclusively for the next 30+ years.

Everything old is new again, I suppose, and recently I began wanting to pick up the DB again. Like everyone else (I think), I read the beginners' threads. From my experience with acoustic guitars, I knew the value of playing before buying, but unfortunately, there was very little around for me to try out. eBay basses looked enticing, but I did wonder about the warnings of "cheap chinese basses." I do own two chinese guitars that are solidly built and sound great, plus a chinese violin that also sounds, feels and plays nicely, and that has held together for a couple years. Exploding basses??? Sounds like an exaggeration to me. But I understand the problems that can arise from using uncured wood in a build. Still, avoiding a particular path, in and of itself, doesn't get you any farther down the road.

Local pawn shops seemed bereft of basses, and those that did show up on occasion were pretty well used and beat up. Occasionally, I found some basses advertised on CraigsList. A no-name black painted bass of uncertain origin that I passed on. A couple older Kays that got snapped up quickly. Finally, I came across a used Holbein, which was a model I'd tried out often at Sam Ash (being the only one so far I'd felt comfortable playing and listening to). It had been set up with a low action from the dealer, and I liked it so I bought it.

I've always maintained my own acoustic guitars and BGs (and violin), from basic setups to fret dressing and refinishing. The Holbein had some wear and I tweaked it. Removed the worn paint from the fingerboard and smoothed and oiled the underlying brazilwood board. Cleaned up some distracting finish flaws and glops around the neck/body joint and by the head. Glossed up the body finish to make it look nicer. I didn't mess with the sound post or bass bar, because everything seems to be according to specs, and it sounds fine as it is. I'll probably add a pickup in the future, after I learn how to play it better.

Getting instruction still seems to be a problem, though. The local instructional schools and my luthier can offer little guidance there. Fortunately, the internet offers examples that weren't available back in 1972, and I watch the YouTube clips as much for gleaning technique as for the performance itself. A Mel Bay book and some Grand Funk records got me started on a 20+ year career playing BG, so a Mingus CD (and Donovan's "Beat Cafe") can likewise help me learn DB. After all, I harbor no fantasies about sitting in the local symphony.
 
#72
KrisH said:
...Exploding basses??? Sounds like an exaggeration to me. But I understand the problems that can arise from using uncured wood in a build.
Click to expand...

Actually, imploding basses and it's no exaggeration.

KrisH said:
Still, avoiding a particular path, in and of itself, doesn't get you any farther down the road.
Click to expand...

True, but sometimes it allows you to pick a far better path that will take you farther and faster down the road. Staying put is better than driving off a cliff. ;)

I hope you interpret my comments in the proper context. As you will see from my previous post, I'm hardly an extremist with regard to such matters.
 
#73
Bump..

As Falls Wichita so Falls Wichita Falls! (A GREAT concert, BTW)

My UB is still in one piece, but I'm not playing it more than an hour a month..

I'm now playing a Rush Tribute Band, and have a Geddy Jazz Bass that is my muse. I didn't expect that, but the Geddy Bass feels really good!

My UB journey is not over.. yet. I'm gonna try and make it feel like the Kay I had the opportunity play. I'll post pics as to how much shaving I have to do to make that happen..

Robin
 
#75
Joe Ergle said:
You must have a REALLY long beard to get in the way of your playing like that.
Click to expand...

Don't laugh - I had to trim mine down last month so it would quit getting caught between the E string and fingerboard. It's terribly embarrassing on a gig. :hmm:

Robin,

Regarding the talbass "trolls" (Edit: I realize you didn't actually use this term - it was somewhere in the thread, posted by another user) that are constantly advising posters to stay away from CCBs:

From the threads I've read here, I think more of the experienced players/teachers would maybe consider seeing cheap basses as an okay starting point if:
a) they actually were as cheap as they seem on first look. I know you've decided to do your own work as an experiment so this point doesn't quite apply to your situation. And,

b) so many of their students didn't give up on double bass entirely after having had to deal with one. IMO, if an instrument is lousy enough (and cannot be fixed) that it makes one want to give up on making music with it - it's an abomination and should be taken directly to the most happenin' beach bonfire party going on this weekend. You know, uh, for a jam......;)
 
#76
I have seen a lot of CCBs that have, in general, not caused me to alter my opinion on the wisdom of buying them. Many of them have been shockingly poorly constructed, and most of them have imploded or are well on the way.

And then, this student of mine come in for a lesson with his glossy jack-o-lantern finished CCB backup bass, strung with Eurosonics. Frickin' thing is a cannon. Great focused tone, perfectly balanced, and plays beautifully. He's very kindly offered me the use one of his basses when mine's in the shop; this would be the one I would pick.

I suppose it's like the thing about a blind pig finding an acorn once in awhile, because I haven't run into any other cheapies like this one. Somebody in the bass factory just got it right that day, I guess.
 
#79
It is an interesting approach, as many players opt to start on an electric upright due to price reasons -- I know I did.

The positive thing about this story, going from the significant activity of last winter to the update yesterday that it only gets played once a month now, is that Robin's adventures into playing the upright bass didn't cost him very much and, ultimately, he's not out that much money now that he's (at least for now) moved back to bass guitar. If a $300 bass lets someone try the instrument out, get into it and practice, then it's not a waste. Arguably, CCBs are sort of the sub-student model anyway, which is perfect for experimenting.

Regarding the neck depth, I like my Kay *because* it was modified to have a thicker neck. The original neck split some years ago, and a pro luthier patched it up and added extra wood to reinforce the neck and add depth. Replaced the fingerboard with ebony, too. Long before I owned it, of course.


As for the Chinese, I'm sure that those who play professionally end up with similar assumptions as those of us here. American jeans are huge in Europe despite there being plenty of pants in the EU, for example. There's probably a fair number of Chinese citizens who start out on a cheap, local bass, and, if they progress, end up with a much nicer bass.
 

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