History lesson - Thunderfunk/SWR/Eden, etc.

[alotabass]

It was featured for only one year in the 1997 catalog. I was at NAMM when I first learned of it. I managed to put this cab up against a lot of other cabs and nothing touches it. I even took it a step further and loaded it up with 4 600 watt JBLs, 2 per cab. The original cones were only 200 watts each. It made a great cab sound even better. The frequency is 30hz to about 150hz its a true sub.

 

[old_thumper]

What kind of gigs would you play that you would use them? Is that what those WT-1250s are for? To run your subs? I've always wanted to cop Tim Cummerford's sound without having to invest in Ampeg SVT tube heads and those PR810HLF cabs he runs (that's why I have the Ampeg PR410HLF) but I still don't have that low end dirty grind he has. I got some of the high end spit but that's about it.

 

[alotabass]

What kind of gigs would you play that you would use them? Is that what those WT-1250s are for? To run your subs? I've always wanted to cop Tim Cummerford's sound without having to invest in Ampeg SVT tube heads and those PR810HLF cabs he runs (that's why I have the Ampeg PR410HLF) but I still don't have that low end dirty grind he has. I got some of the high end spit but that's about it.

I used to run the subs on one Eden WT1550 poweramp and I have a pair of JBL E-130s that I would run on the other WT1250. I would run the crossover at around 180hz. It sounded crazy huge. I can still do that but since I started working with NYC based projects most of the venues already have a backline so I bring very little to the venues these days. At most I bring my Class D Navigator. It has two 500 watt amps, I have several Bag End 4x10 or Aguilar 1x12 cabs that I can lug depending on the size of the gig. For smaller gigs I have Phil Jones amps that have been wonderful on my back

 

[Analogeezer]

It was featured for only one year in the 1997 catalog. I was at NAMM when I first learned of it. I managed to put this cab up against a lot of other cabs and nothing touches it. I even took it a step further and loaded it up with 4 600 watt JBLs, 2 per cab. The original cones were only 200 watts each. It made a great cab sound even better. The frequency is 30hz to about 150hz its a true sub.

Interesting, I actually have a copy of that year's catalog and always thought that cabinet was just part of the line that was not as popular. I did not ever see one in a store.

Never realized it was a one year and done thing.

Seems like Isobaric cabinets (Ampeg made one or two of them) were the next big thing for like six months.

I've never played through an isobaric cabinet but I appreciate designs that are different from the rest of the pack.

Analogeezer

 

[bucephylus]

Long time thread!

I gigged an Eden VT.25 with the Demeter preamp for several years, often on top of a Hartke 410 Transporter. It was a great gig rig for the time; and I became particularly captivated by the VT.25.

Sadly, something went wrong with the amp; and when I returned the amp to Eden, they told me that they had broken off agreement with James Demeter for the preamp, but would replace the preamp with their new preamp. I told them no thanks, please keep the amp. They did the refit anyhow and sent me the amp with the bill; which I refused for delivery and had returned to them. Kind of irritated me; because I had been clear I did not want the amp back without the Demeter preamp.

A little later, the WT-300’s and WT-400’s hit the shops. I spent about two hours in Totally Cool Bass Gear twisting those preamp knobs trying to get a good tone out of the things, but never found a single setting to my liking. Left the shop hugely disappointed. Not long after I went with a VTBP-201 and never looked back. Different strokes.

 

[IvanMike]

Long time thread!

I gigged an Eden VT.25 with the Demeter preamp for several years, often on top of a Hartke 410 Transporter. It was a great gig rig for the time; and I became particularly captivated by the VT.25.

Sadly, something went wrong with the amp; and when I returned the amp to Eden, they told me that they had broken off agreement with James Demeter for the preamp, but would replace the preamp with their new preamp. I told them no thanks, please keep the amp. They did the refit anyhow and sent me the amp with the bill; which I refused for delivery and had returned to them. Kind of irritated me; because I had been clear I did not want the amp back without the Demeter preamp.

A little later, the WT-300’s and WT-400’s hit the shops. I spent about two hours in Totally Cool Bass Gear twisting those preamp knobs trying to get a good tone out of the things, but never found a single setting to my liking. Left the shop hugely disappointed. Not long after I went with a VTBP-201 and never looked back. Different strokes.

Yeah they’re really different sounds. I like them both I wish I hadn’t sold my 400. Still have a Demeter.

 

[mbrain]

I agree. Something about the 90s Eden gear just worked for me. I have a pair of these insane cabs Eden made. 2x15s in an isobaric chamber. The cab is only 23x23x18 View attachment 4560931

Here’s a link to the old catalog. https://jedistar.com/pdf/Eden 1997 Catalog.pdf

I somehow suspect Eden had that cab or something very similar in mind when it put a crossover/bi-amp feature in the WT800.

 

[old_thumper]

Nice link to the catalog. I did notice that the D212XLT got very close to the same low end that the D215XL had (44Hz vs 42Hz). Then the D118XL did match the D215XL. The D215XL only came in 4 ohm where the D212XLT was either 4 or 8 ohm and the D118XL was 8 ohm. Could be that the overlap in product squeezed the D215XL out. I would suspect it was a bit more expensive to build that the other 2 cabs as well. Unless I could hear them all side by side, I'd probably opt for the D118XL if I was looking just for a sub or the D212XLT for a full range cab.

I'm not sure when but I recall that Eden made a D215XLT where all speakers were facing forward. It was fairly heavy as well (is 100lbs correct?) But then Eden also started making the D210XST and D410XST later and they certainly had some low reach as well. I do have the D410XST and it does go low and seems flatter in response compared to the D410XLT that does have that satisfying to some low mid hump.

Then Eden also made a beast similar to the almighty Ampeg 8x10. It wasn't light either...don't recall the weight and never had the privilege of owning or hearing one.

All these cabs are jewels to me and it would be awesome to own them all. Not going to happen for me though. Maybe somebody has all of them or at least a decent amount of them.

 

[alotabass]

Nice link to the catalog. I did notice that the D212XLT got very close to the same low end that the D215XL had (44Hz vs 42Hz). Then the D118XL did match the D215XL. The D215XL only came in 4 ohm where the D212XLT was either 4 or 8 ohm and the D118XL was 8 ohm. Could be that the overlap in product squeezed the D215XL out. I would suspect it was a bit more expensive to build that the other 2 cabs as well. Unless I could hear them all side by side, I'd probably opt for the D118XL if I was looking just for a sub or the D212XLT for a full range cab.

I'm not sure when but I recall that Eden made a D215XLT where all speakers were facing forward. It was fairly heavy as well (is 100lbs correct?) But then Eden also started making the D210XST and D410XST later and they certainly had some low reach as well. I do have the D410XST and it does go low and seems flatter in response compared to the D410XLT that does have that satisfying to some low mid hump.

Then Eden also made a beast similar to the almighty Ampeg 8x10. It wasn't light either...don't recall the weight and never had the privilege of owning or hearing one.

All these cabs are jewels to me and it would be awesome to own them all. Not going to happen for me though. Maybe somebody has all of them or at least a decent amount of them.

I can honestly tell you that you cant go by specs alone. I had the opportunity to AB the D-215XL next to the D-118XL. Both sounded amazing but the 2x15 just had more deeper lows and impact. The 18 had more upper range bass. It all depends on what you are shooting for. If you want a more full range sound go for the 18 but if you want maximum bass impact in the 30hz to 60hz range then the D-215XL is the best cab they ever made and I have tried them all.

 

[old_thumper]

Thanks for the added insight alotabass. It's actually nice to hear the details and experience from players like you who had such opportunities to try gear like this.

I'm trying to picture what the Isobaric D215XL looked like inside.

Are the speakers arranged cone to cone, magnet to magnet or something else?

You did mention that you swapped out the Eden drivers for some 600W JBLs. What the overall sound difference there? Did you ever get to try the 400W Eden 15" drivers in your D215XL cab?

 

[alotabass]

Thanks for the added insight alotabass. It's actually nice to hear the details and experience from players like you who had such opportunities to try gear like this.

I'm trying to picture what the Isobaric D215XL looked like inside.

Are the speakers arranged cone to cone, magnet to magnet or something else?

You did mention that you swapped out the Eden drivers for some 600W JBLs. What the overall sound difference there? Did you ever get to try the 400W Eden 15" drivers in your D215XL cab?

I was playing in a loud band and blew one of the drivers. So I upgraded to the heavy duty JBLs and the sound difference was night and day so I decided to upgrade the other D-215XL as well and sold the working remaining Eden drivers. The drivers are facing each other Cone to Cone. One of the drivers is out of phase so they both move in and out at the same time creating a massive air flow of bass thru the vents which is why they sound amazing from 60hz on down. That's the frequency range where the air really starts to happen.

The cones are configure upright like this. This is the closest match I could find.

Here is another example with 4x15's

 

[Vic]

Here’s a link to the old catalog. https://jedistar.com/pdf/Eden 1997 Catalog.pdf

I somehow suspect Eden had that cab or something very similar in mind when it put a crossover/bi-amp feature in the WT800.

interesting that catalog is before they came out with the time traveler head, which honestly, was my favorite sounding, even though it was a bit of a departure from the rest of their line. they had some kind of "golden ear" chip in there as i recall they named it. not sure what kind of processing it did, but man i loved that head. just wanted a more powerful version.

 

[mbrain]

interesting that catalog is before they came out with the time traveler head, which honestly, was my favorite sounding, even though it was a bit of a departure from the rest of their line. they had some kind of "golden ear" chip in there as i recall they named it. not sure what kind of processing it did, but man i loved that head. just wanted a more powerful version.

For a trip down memory lane, here's a link to a series of Eden catalogs spanning 1997 to 2016:

https://jedistar.com/eden-electronics/

At least one of the products listed never made it to market--the 2008 catalog's ROC1500, which was to be a 1400 watt at 4 ohm, 16 pound head. My recollection is that Eden teased its development for a couple of years as the ideal companion to the D810RP cab they designed with Rocco Prestia, but ultimately gave up trying to make it work.

 

[Vic]

For a trip down memory lane, here's a link to a series of Eden catalogs spanning 1997 to 2016:

https://jedistar.com/eden-electronics/

At least one of the products listed never made it to market--the 2008 catalog's ROC1500, which was to be a 1400 watt at 4 ohm, 16 pound head. My recollection is that Eden teased its development for a couple of years as the ideal companion to the D810RP cab they designed with Rocco Prestia, but ultimately gave up trying to make it work.

awesome. looks like the time traveler wt-405 went from 2001 thru 2009.

 

[alotabass]

For a trip down memory lane, here's a link to a series of Eden catalogs spanning 1997 to 2016:

https://jedistar.com/eden-electronics/

At least one of the products listed never made it to market--the 2008 catalog's ROC1500, which was to be a 1400 watt at 4 ohm, 16 pound head. My recollection is that Eden teased its development for a couple of years as the ideal companion to the D810RP cab they designed with Rocco Prestia, but ultimately gave up trying to make it work.

Thanks for posting the link to the Eden catalogs. You wont find a bigger Eden fan than me

 

[Clark Dark]

Hey there. This post may bore some of you to tears, but personally I find the history of all the stuff we use like amps, cabs, effects, and basses fascinating. If youre like me, you might actually enjoy some of this. If any of what Ive posted here is inaccurate, please let me know so I can make corrections. Im not perfect, just close. Most of this info was from research both here at the TB archives via the search function, and from older literature, articles, etc. I also e-mailed Dave Funk a couple of times and had him clear up a fact or two for me. Thanks to Dave for being so patient.

Back in the early 1990s I became re-interested in bass amplification after coming across SWR products. Not long after I was turned onto Eden gear and was struck by the similarities. Around that same time I came across a couple of used AMP amplifiers and did the same double take. (I wish I had bought those AMPs). Turns out the story is more convoluted and interesting than your usual Behringer blatant knock-off of any given product.

Over 20 years ago, Russ Allee, who designed the 360 and 370 amps for Acoustic left that company and started a new company called Amplified Music Products with a guy named Roger Smith. Russ had Steve Rabe, another ex-Acoustic guy, help design the preamp for the AMP 420 amplifier heads. The preamp section had an enhance switch, fixed frequency bass and treble knobs and four semi-parametric midrange bands. The amplifier also had a variable limiter and a crossover for biamping if you had another power amp. AMP also made a lower wattage version called the 260.

Steve Rabe left AMP at some point and founded SWR. He was across the street from Groove Tubes and designed the bass preamp that Groove Tubes used to sell. The GT preamp was identical to the front end of an SWR studio 220, just no power section. SWRs studio 220 and SM-400 were designed by Steve and were pretty similar to the old AMP design except they used a 12AX-7 tube in the input gain stage, and the enhance switch was replaced with a variable aural enhancer knob.

Deciding that he wanted to offer cabinets as well as amplifiers, Rabe commissioned David Nordschow of Eden Electronics to make speaker cabinets for SWR. Up to that point Eden had been making PA speakers. Depending upon who you listen to, the development of the original goliath 4x10 + tweeter cabinet has a couple of versions. Eden claims that SWR wanted a two way cabinet (presumably a 15+horn) and David sent SWR the 410T as an afterthought, wanting to know what they thought of it. The other story is that Steve Rabe and David Nordschow collaborated on the design. In any event, Eden made cabinets for SWR for a while until SWR opted to make its own, presumably due to quality control concerns. The split was not entirely peaceful, but wasnt quite up to the soap opera status of the rift between Nick Epifani and Jim Bergantino. After many years, Steve Rabe left SWR to found Raven labs, and subsequently retired.

Eden improved its quality control, and continued to make cabinets under its own name. Wanting to offer a complete line David released a couple of heads with a preamp designed by James Demeter. The Preamp was very similar to the VTBP-201, with the addition of a DBX-style two knob compressor. Later, David revamped the Eden amp line with the introduction of the world tour series, with a preamp designed by none other than Russ Allee. The front of the world tour series amps was very similar to the AMP-420 and SWR studio 220. There were only 3 semi parametric bands, and the compressor was a simple on/off switch. There was a variable enhance knob, but a crossover was offered only on the WT-800. Like the SWR, the Eden incorporated a 12AX-7 preamp tube, another departure from the all solid state design of the AMP-420.

Why was Allee available to consult for Eden? Well, AMP folded in 1988 and was reportedly bought by Gibson. Either Russ Allee designed the GB-440 for Gibson or Gibson just continued making the AMP-420 under the new Gibson GB-440 moniker. Rumor has it that Gibson made some changes that destroyed the reliability of the amplifier. (Imagine Gibson doing that to any company theyve bought out). Production of the GB-440 was halted sometime around 1990 and the unbuilt amplifiers remained in a warehouse for some time.

Recently Dave Funk was involved with Gibson as a consultant/contractor, and was doing repairs for them. One of the managers approached him and asked if he wanted to purchase the contents of a warehouse they were cleaning out. When he bought it he found the remnants of the GB-440 line, including enough spare parts to build about 30 amps. Since then Dave has made several improvements to the design, including better components, a timbre control, and a switch to select two different preamp voicings. There is no crossover on the head. Thus we have the TF-420.

If youve tried them, you know that despite external appearances SWR and Eden amps do not sound alike. The same is true for the original AMP-420. I have yet to try a Thunderfunk, but if its as good as the original AMP (and most who have tried both say it is) then Ill like it better than the SWR and Eden, which are still two of my favorite amplifiers.

If anyone knows where Russ Allee is, let me know. I want to buy that man a drink.

Good stuff, here's a question for you. I have a friend that has an Eden World Tour 800B he bought brand new when they were released. It has developed a problem and the left output amp isn't working. Where can he send it for repair?

Thanks

 

[Vic]

Good stuff, here's a question for you. I have a friend that has an Eden World Tour 800B he bought brand new when they were released. It has developed a problem and the left output amp isn't working. Where can he send it for repair?

Thanks

Seems like contacting them would be best for this question: Invalid Link Removed

 

[Clark Dark]

Contacting them is like trying to find teeth in a chicken. Between contacting Eden directly and that company that bought them my friend says all he hears is crickets. By the way, in researching who bought Eden I see the purchase price was around 141,000 pounds or the equivalent of $150,000.00
Thanks for replying

 

[Vic]

Contacting them is like trying to find teeth in a chicken. Between contacting Eden directly and that company that bought them my friend says all he hears is crickets. By the way, in researching who bought Eden I see the purchase price was around 141,000 pounds or the equivalent of $150,000.00
Thanks for replying

LOL, well maybe then it's time to get another brand of amp that works well and is better supported. FWIW that's what I'd do. Nothing more frustrating (as you note) than having something you have to rely on that's difficult to own or risky to use. Life is too short, with too many great options for us bassists, to cling to an anchor like that. Just my thoughts.