- Feb 12, 2006
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
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History lesson - Thunderfunk/SWR/Eden, etc.
- Thread starter IvanMike
- Start date
As I recall, the T series were Eden's first cabinets in the early 90s, followed by the XLTs, then later the XST series. IMO, while probably well made, there's nothing particularly special about the Eden D-410T when compared with cabinets available today. Compared to the D-410XLT, the T is thinner in the lows and handles less power. Wouldn't recommend it for low-B, but could work fairly well with a 4-string.
Nice job summing it up! I had heard parts of that but never pieced it all together. Thanks!Hey there. This post may bore some of you to tears, but personally I find the history of all the stuff we use like amps, cabs, effects, and basses fascinating. If youre like me, you might actually enjoy some of this. If any of what Ive posted here is inaccurate, please let me know so I can make corrections. Im not perfect, just close.Most of this info was from research both here at the TB archives via the search function, and from older literature, articles, etc. I also e-mailed Dave Funk a couple of times and had him clear up a fact or two for me. Thanks to Dave for being so patient.
Back in the early 1990s I became re-interested in bass amplification after coming across SWR products. Not long after I was turned onto Eden gear and was struck by the similarities. Around that same time I came across a couple of used AMP amplifiers and did the same double take. (I wish I had bought those AMPs). Turns out the story is more convoluted and interesting than your usual Behringer blatant knock-off of any given product.
Over 20 years ago, Russ Allee, who designed the 360 and 370 amps for Acoustic left that company and started a new company called Amplified Music Products with a guy named Roger Smith. Russ had Steve Rabe, another ex-Acoustic guy, help design the preamp for the AMP 420 amplifier heads. The preamp section had an enhance switch, fixed frequency bass and treble knobs and four semi-parametric midrange bands. The amplifier also had a variable limiter and a crossover for biamping if you had another power amp. AMP also made a lower wattage version called the 260.
Steve Rabe left AMP at some point and founded SWR. He was across the street from Groove Tubes and designed the bass preamp that Groove Tubes used to sell. The GT preamp was identical to the front end of an SWR studio 220, just no power section. SWRs studio 220 and SM-400 were designed by Steve and were pretty similar to the old AMP design except they used a 12AX-7 tube in the input gain stage, and the enhance switch was replaced with a variable aural enhancer knob.
Deciding that he wanted to offer cabinets as well as amplifiers, Rabe commissioned David Nordschow of Eden Electronics to make speaker cabinets for SWR. Up to that point Eden had been making PA speakers. Depending upon who you listen to, the development of the original goliath 4x10 + tweeter cabinet has a couple of versions. Eden claims that SWR wanted a two way cabinet (presumably a 15+horn) and David sent SWR the 410T as an afterthought, wanting to know what they thought of it. The other story is that Steve Rabe and David Nordschow collaborated on the design. In any event, Eden made cabinets for SWR for a while until SWR opted to make its own, presumably due to quality control concerns. The split was not entirely peaceful, but wasnt quite up to the soap opera status of the rift between Nick Epifani and Jim Bergantino. After many years, Steve Rabe left SWR to found Raven labs, and subsequently retired.
Eden improved its quality control, and continued to make cabinets under its own name. Wanting to offer a complete line David released a couple of heads with a preamp designed by James Demeter. The Preamp was very similar to the VTBP-201, with the addition of a DBX-style two knob compressor. Later, David revamped the Eden amp line with the introduction of the world tour series, with a preamp designed by none other than Russ Allee. The front of the world tour series amps was very similar to the AMP-420 and SWR studio 220. There were only 3 semi parametric bands, and the compressor was a simple on/off switch. There was a variable enhance knob, but a crossover was offered only on the WT-800. Like the SWR, the Eden incorporated a 12AX-7 preamp tube, another departure from the all solid state design of the AMP-420.
Why was Allee available to consult for Eden? Well, AMP folded in 1988 and was reportedly bought by Gibson. Either Russ Allee designed the GB-440 for Gibson or Gibson just continued making the AMP-420 under the new Gibson GB-440 moniker. Rumor has it that Gibson made some changes that destroyed the reliability of the amplifier. (Imagine Gibson doing that to any company theyve bought out).Production of the GB-440 was halted sometime around 1990 and the unbuilt amplifiers remained in a warehouse for some time.
Recently Dave Funk was involved with Gibson as a consultant/contractor, and was doing repairs for them. One of the managers approached him and asked if he wanted to purchase the contents of a warehouse they were cleaning out. When he bought it he found the remnants of the GB-440 line, including enough spare parts to build about 30 amps. Since then Dave has made several improvements to the design, including better components, a timbre control, and a switch to select two different preamp voicings. There is no crossover on the head. Thus we have the TF-420.
If youve tried them, you know that despite external appearances SWR and Eden amps do not sound alike. The same is true for the original AMP-420. I have yet to try a Thunderfunk, but if its as good as the original AMP (and most who have tried both say it is) then Ill like it better than the SWR and Eden, which are still two of my favorite amplifiers.
If anyone knows where Russ Allee is, let me know. I want to buy that man a drink.
Why not just message David Nordschow himself? Surely he'd know! He's still out there building products, just not Eden stuff anymore.
DNA Amps - David Nordschow Amplification - Bass AmpsDavid Nordschow Amplification
LA Series was SWR with them white speakers, not Eden.
SWR LA 12 USER MANUAL Pdf Download | ManualsLib
SWR LA 12" combo amp review.
Distant cousins!LA Series was SWR with them white speakers, not Eden.
SWR LA 12 USER MANUAL Pdf Download | ManualsLib
SWR LA 12" combo amp review.
View attachment 4260956
Thank you sir, I stand corrected. I still didn't like the L.A. series. It seemed shallow and not a lot of power. I notice they did continue to use the top mounted handles though, much like Eden and DNA do to this day...
Thanks for your insight. I decided to pass on the eden cab. I ended up keeping an 18 inch jbl cabinet I impulsively bought from a church that is designed for pro audio, maybe a dj pa system. It can't do highs, but it meets my goal as a bass player which is generous on the low notes. Not seeing much gigging in my future--so the fact that it takes two people to move it around is not a concern. There is something funky about how 4x10 sound, but not worth cluttering up my house given my limited activity.
The Hartke connection to all this two-fold. Hartke's first distribution was through Guild guitars. At NAMM they used AMP amplifiers to demo the cabinets, and I believe allowed AMP to take orders for amps. We did order several AMP amps, but they were never delivered as the company folded.
I read an interview with David Nordschow in a retail music trade magazine (probably MMR) where he claimed the impetus for his original 4x10 bass cabinet was the Hartke. He liked the form factor but thought the actual design left a lot to be desired. If I recall correctly he said the Hartke was really popular and he thought he could make a better box and be successful.
I read an interview with David Nordschow in a retail music trade magazine (probably MMR) where he claimed the impetus for his original 4x10 bass cabinet was the Hartke. He liked the form factor but thought the actual design left a lot to be desired. If I recall correctly he said the Hartke was really popular and he thought he could make a better box and be successful.
if you're talking about the SWR 410, i believe it, and imho, he did it. i always thought the hartke's were loud, but nasal/boxy sounding. never liked them.
if you're talking about the eden 410's, well, the driver behind that was the swr cab... to try and beat it in the market post-partum... hence the name "david series".
The Eden cabs have always gotten a lot of respect, especially the beastly heavy 410's. 30 years ago I would have still owned one but now I'm all about compact. I wish Eden would come out with a bunch of lightweight stuff like all the other companies.
if you're talking about the SWR 410, i believe it, and imho, he did it. i always thought the hartke's were loud, but nasal/boxy sounding. never liked them.
if you're talking about the eden 410's, well, the driver behind that was the swr cab... to try and beat it in the market post-partum... hence the name "david series".
I own a DNS112 and the thing ROCKS for a 112! I have a 4oHm 400 watt 12" driver in there and that huge port just pumps out the low end for days. I think David was and is really onto something with his cabs. They are still excellent sounding to my ears, especially when they're slightly overdriven. But then, I'm an old school player so there's that...
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The D-410T is the earliest 410 Eden made. I believe it remained in production for a couple years even after the XLT line came out. If the speakers are original, they were made in house by Eden and heavy! LOL. I had one of those cabs for a while in the 90's before I picked up a 410XLT which seemed much louder and had similar but upgraded speakers. (Higher thermal rating and more mechanical clearance)
The quality from that era was quite good. The only thing about the D-410T that I didn't like was the way they implemented the rear port. It just looked cheap. They worked well though and I enjoyed the sound of that cab.
@Rip Van Dan may be able to correct me if I'm off on some points.
Hey all, Zombie threads rule. I have been using Eden old school WT800 for awhile. I have always loved the tone! I will never get rid of it. I recently picked up a SWR Bass 350. I am really enjoying it. I have the Goliath III 410. Crushing cab! I have always been fond of SWR gear. I hope I can find some more pre-fender era!
Agreed. There's another bass player in town who owns an SWR Workingman's 15 and when we have dual bands I love using his amp. It really starts breaking up and sounding sweet at about 2:00 o'clock.
Here's one I wouldn't mind owning again just for fun if one came across my path and was affordable.
SWR Workingman's 12
I probably mentioned this before, but I picked one of those in Denver at the beginning of a short duo tour and loved it, sold it Wyoming right before the flight back, me and my buddy loved that thing.
Just keeping the zombie thread kicking.
I didn't know about AMP and Thunderfunk bass amps. Nice to learn about the history.
I got in the game later when SWR was already established and Eden was the rising star.
I was originally playing with a SWR SM400 and a Peavey 410TX cab. Played that way for some time. I'd seen top line players using Eden stuff but never got the chance to try any of it. I got a deal I couldn't refuse and traded the SM400 ( and some cash ) for an SM900. Kept that unit for the longest time ( it's pre fender - made in 1992 ). I knew the tone could be better but I figured the Peaveys was doing OK.
I eventually went to a pair of Peavey 410TVX ( mdf and heavy ) on the SM900 but something just seemed missing.
I finally got my chance to play on an Eden D410XLT and...wow...there the tone was. SO much better then the Peaveys.
I've been collecting Eden stuff ever since. Of course, now Eden is considered passe and old stuff becuase it's heavy and big but I love getting what I can. I found a used Eden WT800B and parked the SWR SM900 ( as a spare backup ) and used the D410XLT. Then one day, a channel blew on the WT800. $350 for just 1 power amp board. I thought there has to be a cheaper way to get that Eden sound.
So, I found a used Eden WP100 Navigator and run a used Crown amp for the power ( either the XLS 402/602/802 or the XLS1500, 2000 or 2500 ). I can get used Crown power amps used all the time cheaper than the $350 it cost to fix the WT800.
Now I run the WP100 into a Crown XLS1500 ( nice and light ) and use either a D410XLT/ D410XST or a D210XLT/D115XL for cabs.
I did find a very good home for the SWR SM900. Sad to let that one go but it was the spare for the spare.
All wonderful stuff and all relatively inexpensive since I buy them used.
I didn't know about AMP and Thunderfunk bass amps. Nice to learn about the history.
I got in the game later when SWR was already established and Eden was the rising star.
I was originally playing with a SWR SM400 and a Peavey 410TX cab. Played that way for some time. I'd seen top line players using Eden stuff but never got the chance to try any of it. I got a deal I couldn't refuse and traded the SM400 ( and some cash ) for an SM900. Kept that unit for the longest time ( it's pre fender - made in 1992 ). I knew the tone could be better but I figured the Peaveys was doing OK.
I eventually went to a pair of Peavey 410TVX ( mdf and heavy ) on the SM900 but something just seemed missing.
I finally got my chance to play on an Eden D410XLT and...wow...there the tone was. SO much better then the Peaveys.
I've been collecting Eden stuff ever since. Of course, now Eden is considered passe and old stuff becuase it's heavy and big but I love getting what I can. I found a used Eden WT800B and parked the SWR SM900 ( as a spare backup ) and used the D410XLT. Then one day, a channel blew on the WT800. $350 for just 1 power amp board. I thought there has to be a cheaper way to get that Eden sound.
So, I found a used Eden WP100 Navigator and run a used Crown amp for the power ( either the XLS 402/602/802 or the XLS1500, 2000 or 2500 ). I can get used Crown power amps used all the time cheaper than the $350 it cost to fix the WT800.
Now I run the WP100 into a Crown XLS1500 ( nice and light ) and use either a D410XLT/ D410XST or a D210XLT/D115XL for cabs.
I did find a very good home for the SWR SM900. Sad to let that one go but it was the spare for the spare.
All wonderful stuff and all relatively inexpensive since I buy them used.
Hey there. This post may bore some of you to tears, but personally I find the history of all the stuff we use like amps, cabs, effects, and basses fascinating. If youre like me, you might actually enjoy some of this. If any of what Ive posted here is inaccurate, please let me know so I can make corrections. Im not perfect, just close.
Back in the early 1990s I became re-interested in bass amplification after coming across SWR products. Not long after I was turned onto Eden gear and was struck by the similarities. Around that same time I came across a couple of used AMP amplifiers and did the same double take. (I wish I had bought those AMPs). Turns out the story is more convoluted and interesting than your usual Behringer blatant knock-off of any given product.
Over 20 years ago, Russ Allee, who designed the 360 and 370 amps for Acoustic left that company and started a new company called Amplified Music Products with a guy named Roger Smith. Russ had Steve Rabe, another ex-Acoustic guy, help design the preamp for the AMP 420 amplifier heads. The preamp section had an enhance switch, fixed frequency bass and treble knobs and four semi-parametric midrange bands. The amplifier also had a variable limiter and a crossover for biamping if you had another power amp. AMP also made a lower wattage version called the 260.
Steve Rabe left AMP at some point and founded SWR. He was across the street from Groove Tubes and designed the bass preamp that Groove Tubes used to sell. The GT preamp was identical to the front end of an SWR studio 220, just no power section. SWRs studio 220 and SM-400 were designed by Steve and were pretty similar to the old AMP design except they used a 12AX-7 tube in the input gain stage, and the enhance switch was replaced with a variable aural enhancer knob.
Deciding that he wanted to offer cabinets as well as amplifiers, Rabe commissioned David Nordschow of Eden Electronics to make speaker cabinets for SWR. Up to that point Eden had been making PA speakers. Depending upon who you listen to, the development of the original goliath 4x10 + tweeter cabinet has a couple of versions. Eden claims that SWR wanted a two way cabinet (presumably a 15+horn) and David sent SWR the 410T as an afterthought, wanting to know what they thought of it. The other story is that Steve Rabe and David Nordschow collaborated on the design. In any event, Eden made cabinets for SWR for a while until SWR opted to make its own, presumably due to quality control concerns. The split was not entirely peaceful, but wasnt quite up to the soap opera status of the rift between Nick Epifani and Jim Bergantino. After many years, Steve Rabe left SWR to found Raven labs, and subsequently retired.
Eden improved its quality control, and continued to make cabinets under its own name. Wanting to offer a complete line David released a couple of heads with a preamp designed by James Demeter. The Preamp was very similar to the VTBP-201, with the addition of a DBX-style two knob compressor. Later, David revamped the Eden amp line with the introduction of the world tour series, with a preamp designed by none other than Russ Allee. The front of the world tour series amps was very similar to the AMP-420 and SWR studio 220. There were only 3 semi parametric bands, and the compressor was a simple on/off switch. There was a variable enhance knob, but a crossover was offered only on the WT-800. Like the SWR, the Eden incorporated a 12AX-7 preamp tube, another departure from the all solid state design of the AMP-420.
Why was Allee available to consult for Eden? Well, AMP folded in 1988 and was reportedly bought by Gibson. Either Russ Allee designed the GB-440 for Gibson or Gibson just continued making the AMP-420 under the new Gibson GB-440 moniker. Rumor has it that Gibson made some changes that destroyed the reliability of the amplifier. (Imagine Gibson doing that to any company theyve bought out).
Recently Dave Funk was involved with Gibson as a consultant/contractor, and was doing repairs for them. One of the managers approached him and asked if he wanted to purchase the contents of a warehouse they were cleaning out. When he bought it he found the remnants of the GB-440 line, including enough spare parts to build about 30 amps. Since then Dave has made several improvements to the design, including better components, a timbre control, and a switch to select two different preamp voicings. There is no crossover on the head. Thus we have the TF-420.
If youve tried them, you know that despite external appearances SWR and Eden amps do not sound alike. The same is true for the original AMP-420. I have yet to try a Thunderfunk, but if its as good as the original AMP (and most who have tried both say it is) then Ill like it better than the SWR and Eden, which are still two of my favorite amplifiers.
If anyone knows where Russ Allee is, let me know. I want to buy that man a drink.
I enjoyed learning about this history. I remember all these amps and tried them all. Once I tried Eden my search ended. I still own many Eden heads and use them to this day.
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Wowzers! 6 Navigators?! That is some stash you got!
I'm just trying for 2 Navigators. One works and the other not quite. Like, all the knobs do what they are supposed to. All the lights and buttons the same. It's just when I plug the navigator into a crown amp ( in this case a Crown XLS1500 ) the output from the Navigator's D.I. out XLRs won't drive the amp to any decent volume. It's in the shop...still.
The 2nd Navigator works fine with the same amp. Both were built in the same year ('98').
I've thought about snagging one of those WT-1250s but if something blows, it gets real expensive to fix the Eden stuff. Just one channel of an Eden WT-800 power amp goes for $350 or more. With the Crowns, if a channel goes, I can buy another whole used amp for $200 or so and keep on trucking.
I haven't had the luxury of trying out all the amps mentioned. I started with Fender and Peavey combos and then moved up to SWR heads and Peavey bass cabs ( TX and TVX ). Once I heard an Eden amp and cab, I had to try the amp. Once I tried the amp, I had to get an amp ( WT800 used ). But the tone was still off. I had no idea how much better the Eden cabs sounded compared to the Peaveys. So, I had to get Eden cabs as well and now had that Eden sound that I desired ( D410XLT, D410XST,D15XL,D210XLT ). Love that sound. I know they are "old tech" - heavy, cones wear out - but I'm a sucker for "old tech" ( guitar tube amps, Linear solid state heads and power amps, vintage pedals, etc. ). I'm getting up in years and when I pass on what gear the young-ins want, I want to see the look on their faces when they check out this "old school" stuff. One of these days I'll probably even snag an Ampeg and Mesa tube bass head - massive beasts in their own right - just to show 'em this is how we rocked in the old days...lol.
I'm just trying for 2 Navigators. One works and the other not quite. Like, all the knobs do what they are supposed to. All the lights and buttons the same. It's just when I plug the navigator into a crown amp ( in this case a Crown XLS1500 ) the output from the Navigator's D.I. out XLRs won't drive the amp to any decent volume. It's in the shop...still.
The 2nd Navigator works fine with the same amp. Both were built in the same year ('98').
I've thought about snagging one of those WT-1250s but if something blows, it gets real expensive to fix the Eden stuff. Just one channel of an Eden WT-800 power amp goes for $350 or more. With the Crowns, if a channel goes, I can buy another whole used amp for $200 or so and keep on trucking.
I haven't had the luxury of trying out all the amps mentioned. I started with Fender and Peavey combos and then moved up to SWR heads and Peavey bass cabs ( TX and TVX ). Once I heard an Eden amp and cab, I had to try the amp. Once I tried the amp, I had to get an amp ( WT800 used ). But the tone was still off. I had no idea how much better the Eden cabs sounded compared to the Peaveys. So, I had to get Eden cabs as well and now had that Eden sound that I desired ( D410XLT, D410XST,D15XL,D210XLT ). Love that sound. I know they are "old tech" - heavy, cones wear out - but I'm a sucker for "old tech" ( guitar tube amps, Linear solid state heads and power amps, vintage pedals, etc. ). I'm getting up in years and when I pass on what gear the young-ins want, I want to see the look on their faces when they check out this "old school" stuff. One of these days I'll probably even snag an Ampeg and Mesa tube bass head - massive beasts in their own right - just to show 'em this is how we rocked in the old days...lol.
I agree. Something about the 90s Eden gear just worked for me. I have a pair of these insane cabs Eden made. 2x15s in an isobaric chamber. The cab is only 23x23x18
I've never seen this cab before. I don't even recall seeing it in a catalog.
Is it like a sub? What's the rated freq response and power ratings?
I know that the 15" Eden made speaker for the D15XL has a MASSIVE magnet on it. I wonder if you have 2 of those...
The D410XST can got pretty low but this thing...hmmmm.
I do have an Ampeg PR410-HLF that can hit some pretty low notes but lacks the punch of the Eden cab. The Ampeg does manage to tip the scales at 128 lbs...and it's kinda charmingly ugly
Is it like a sub? What's the rated freq response and power ratings?
I know that the 15" Eden made speaker for the D15XL has a MASSIVE magnet on it. I wonder if you have 2 of those...
The D410XST can got pretty low but this thing...hmmmm.
I do have an Ampeg PR410-HLF that can hit some pretty low notes but lacks the punch of the Eden cab. The Ampeg does manage to tip the scales at 128 lbs...and it's kinda charmingly ugly
