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House Soundman Outed by Digital Technology

jaywa

jaywa

May 5, 2008
7,702
283
Iowa City, IA
#1
So last weekend we played a two-night gig at a place with their own P.A. and in-house soundman who we were required to use. Usually we run our own sound from the board (Yamaha digital) and we use IEMs but because of the house rules we compromised and told the house sound guy he could run the FOH sound via an iPad interface through our board, which would allow us to use our IEMs instead of the house wedges.

So it gets to about the halfway point of the 2nd night's show and I wander out into the house to take a listen. There is NO bass guitar and NO kick drum in the mix AT ALL. And this is after I had rolled some lows off my amp at the soundman's request ("I'll put them back in out front"... yeahright). So we had a band meeting the other night and I was telling the guys how much the FOH sound sucked and our singer/BL (who gets a FOH mix in his IEMs) told me that several times that night he had heard the bottom end going out of the mix so he'd go back to the onstage board and turn up the the bass and kick drum... and a couple of times when he looked at the board he could actually SEE the bass and kick drum faders going back down as the soundman pulled those things out of the mix via the iPad. It kind of hacked me off but at least I knew my BL was trying to go to bat for us guys on the bottom end.
 
#3
Too bad you couldn't just "cut" the iPad connection to the mixer (wifi?). Let him think he's still mixing...

We use a very similar pa setup (except our soundman is really good, and also a bassplayer) He mixes with an iPad and also runs the lights. Mixing board stays on stage, he walks around with the iPad, very stealthy-like. Ninja soundman...:ninja:
 
#4
This brings up the point that soundman defenders never seem to come to grasp with: sound engineers are people too, they have their own personal proclivities and preferences. Some of them simply don't like bass-heavy mixes. I'd go as far as to say they prefer distinctly bass-light mixes. But if that doesn't fit your band's desire for how they want to sound, why shouldn't said sound engineer swallow their pride and mix you the way you want to sound? The corollary to this is the "every band gets the same mix, regardless of genre or style" that I so often hear from less-skilled sound engineers. On the other hand there are those engineers who just like to put up a clean mix, and take their cues from what the band sounds like on-stage. Hurray for them!
 
#6
HolmeBass said:
This brings up the point that soundman defenders never seem to come to grasp with: sound engineers are people too, they have their own personal proclivities and preferences. Some of them simply don't like bass-heavy mixes. I'd go as far as to say they prefer distinctly bass-light mixes. But if that doesn't fit your band's desire for how they want to sound, why shouldn't said sound engineer swallow their pride and mix you the way you want to sound? The corollary to this is the "every band gets the same mix, regardless of genre or style" that I so often hear from less-skilled sound engineers. On the other hand there are those engineers who just like to put up a clean mix, and take their cues from what the band sounds like on-stage. Hurray for them!
Click to expand...

It was a really weird deal. The house sound guy was nice and really helpful when we were setting up, etc., but then as soon as we got through soundcheck the first night, the first thing he said was "the drummer's too loud" and then he said "the guitarist needs to turn down" so things between him and the band got a little off on the wrong foot there. And then the second night as soon as I came in the room he said "there was too much low end last night, can you roll off your lows?" This from my 150-watt combo with a single 12-inch speaker, turned up to no more than 10 o'clock master volume. Seriously? Oh well... I still got paid even if nobody heard me.
 
#11
What irked me the most was that he flat out lied to my face. I turned down my lows cause he said he'd put them back in at the board yet when I went out into the house there was nothing. In fact if I hadn't kept one of my IEMs in while I was out in the house I would have lost my place in the song... that's how absent the bass was. And the kick drum was just as absent.

I know I'm on the verge of soundman bashing here, but it's a two way street. I'll give up a lot to make the soundman's job easier (IEMs, turning down, using a small combo amp instead of a 1,000 watt stack, etc.)... but that dude behind the board had damn well better meet me halfway.

This is why we run our own sound from the stage and use our own P.A. on 90% of our gigs or more. And we have never had a single complaint from a club owner or the audience.
 
#14
Well I knew I was hosed when I was talking to him before the second night and he said, "yeah there were a couple times last night I was feeling it in my chest"... and saying it in such a way that it was a bad thing.

If the venue doesn't want any "punch" in their FOH then they might as well just hire acoustic acts as far as I'm concerned. It's just a waste of the bassist and drummer's time.
 
#15
Normally I don't get involved in debates like this, but I've been on both sides of the board. Jaywa is right on, it's a two way street. Both sides have to be willing to compromise and work together.

JimmyM said:
If Jaywa and the band didn't like what they were hearing, then the soundman wasn't right.
Click to expand...
Muaguana said:
Fixed.
Click to expand...

I side with JimmyM first, but both are correct.

If I'm in a band and we have a certain "sound,", the person running sound does need to be accommodating to that. If I'm in a reggae band, any soundguy with a little common sense shouldn't be mixing us like we're a country/metal/polka band. Uh... Duh.

The audience does need to be considered too though... you wouldn't want to mix in so much high end that their ears bleed, right? A bad mix can cause people to split just as much as a band that flat out sucks.

The fact that that particular soundguy cut out the bass and kick completely (the two most important things that form the foundation of a solid groove) tells me two things though: 1) he doesn't have a clue what he's doing and 2) trying to talk to him about it won't do any good because he's too ignorant to understand.

Sorry to hear you ran into that kind of a problem Jaywa. :hmm:

5sg.
 
#16
Jaywa

Why not just supply a single XLR (premixed)

I've been in your shoes, we send a VERY clean very well mixed single channel (mono) the sound crew can then eq, compress etc...

This leaves our IEM/moniors alone.

This does mean that we carry a bunch of cables with... depending on what the venue needs.
 
#17
jaywa said:
If the venue doesn't want any "punch" in their FOH then they might as well just hire acoustic acts as far as I'm concerned. It's just a waste of the bassist and drummer's time.
Click to expand...

Most venues (and owners) don't care the least about this, they care about how busy there club is and.....it's there club.

It's your choice if you want to play there or not.

And by the way, I agree 100% with you that it sucks not being able to get the sound you want.
And if thats the sound the venue wants they should hire acoustic acts.
Which is why I said I often beg bands not to hire me at certain venues because all I do is get tortured all night from managment!
 
#18
The sound guy wasn't going to go with the single pre-mixed feed. We proposed that first thing and he nixed it... said he needed more control.

FWIW this was a casino gig. We played another (different) casino earlier in the year and ran into sound issues there too so I think it's safe to say we're done with the casino scene. The money's not bad but we're not into selling our souls. Plus this particular gig was a 5-1/2 hour job (4 1-hour sets with three half hour breaks) which is a long effing night especially when the sound ain't happening.
 
#20
Yeah, funny thing was they had a nice JBL 2x18 sub right next to the dance floor. Looked great but I'm not sure it was even turned on. A nice place to set your drinks, though...

Who would of ever thunk that casinos and churches had something in common after all?
 

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