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House Soundman Outed by Digital Technology

#43
lfmn16 said:
Somebody that gets it! The sound man is not part of the band and really shouldn't have any role other than to support the band's vision for their sound. They should not be allowed to put their "creative" stamp on the band.
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No...you don't get it.
The soundman at this particular venue had a job to do, and he did it.
If you don't like the rules at any venue you don't have to play there.
 
#44
I've been giging for 20 years and I can count the number of times the sound was excellent and I mean stage monitors + FOH on one hand.

12 years ago I got the sound bug and absorbed every bit of knowledge about sound I could get my hands/ears on. I went to school and got formal training. I read books, magazines, anything I could get my hands on. I got very good at sound production and that made it even WORSE!!!!!!!!! It was much less painful to do a show 20 years ago, when I knew the sound wasn't right but I didn't necessarily know why and how to fix it.

These days when I am playing, I try to let go of the sound and just play. The sound man will do his thing, and if he is skilled, has a good ear and good taste, we will get good sound. If not, we won't and I just try to let it go. (It's hard though)!
 
#45
HolmeBass said:
This brings up the point that soundman defenders never seem to come to grasp with: sound engineers are people too, they have their own personal proclivities and preferences. Some of them simply don't like bass-heavy mixes. I'd go as far as to say they prefer distinctly bass-light mixes. But if that doesn't fit your band's desire for how they want to sound, why shouldn't said sound engineer swallow their pride and mix you the way you want to sound?
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One reason is that the house sound guy works for the venue, not the band. Frequently he makes the band sound the way the owner of the venue wants it to sound, and that's the guy signing his checks, and yours, too. Sometimes it's the band that needs to swallow their pride.

It's something that some musicians never come to grasp with; when you play a club, it's not about the music, it's about the cash register.
 
#46
jaywa said:
The sound guy wasn't going to go with the single pre-mixed feed. We proposed that first thing and he nixed it... said he needed more control.

FWIW this was a casino gig. We played another (different) casino earlier in the year and ran into sound issues there too so I think it's safe to say we're done with the casino scene. The money's not bad but we're not into selling our souls. Plus this particular gig was a 5-1/2 hour job (4 1-hour sets with three half hour breaks) which is a long effing night especially when the sound ain't happening.
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Casino gigs suck. I have a friend whose band was fired from a casino because they were too good. The marks were hanging around the lounge listening to the music rather than grabbing drinks and going back out to the tables and machines, so the management canned them.
 
#48
Rumor has it casino gigs are notorious for stuff like that. They want nearly zero stage volume, so they can keep the sound down in the casino. They want customers gambling, not dancing, even if also drinking.

The manager probably had a bug in his butt about low freqs.

Also possible that seeing as how bass tends to travel, if he's way way in the back that was all he heard, and cut it down to nearly inaudible like the rest of the mix.

Randy
 
#49
all true, but if that were in fact the situation, a good soundguy would have said something along the lines of "welcome to casino hell, gentlemen! i'm not allowed to give you any volume or low end or the bluehairs on the slot machines will complain! might as well put your ears back in and pretend to rock, and i'll make sure nobody bitches so we all get paid."

that he said the bass was happening when it obviously wasn't (assuming that's really the case) means he's either clueless or a weasel.
 
#50
walterw said:
that he said the bass was happening when it obviously wasn't (assuming that's really the case) means he's either clueless or a weasel.
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...or sick of trying to communicate with musicians who actually believe the gig is about them :)

I agree with you but I can see where the sound guy may have been coming from.

This is why fulltime music sucks....you have to do all this crap to pay the rent.
 
#52
walterw said:
all true, but if that were in fact the situation, a good soundguy would have said something along the lines of "welcome to casino hell, gentlemen! i'm not allowed to give you any volume or low end or the bluehairs on the slot machines will complain! might as well put your ears back in and pretend to rock, and i'll make sure nobody bitches so we all get paid."

that he said the bass was happening when it obviously wasn't (assuming that's really the case) means he's either clueless or a weasel.
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And that would get said sound guy fired
 
#53
ggunn said:
One reason is that the house sound guy works for the venue, not the band. Frequently he makes the band sound the way the owner of the venue wants it to sound, and that's the guy signing his checks, and yours, too. Sometimes it's the band that needs to swallow their pride.

It's something that some musicians never come to grasp with; when you play a club, it's not about the music, it's about the cash register.
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Presumably the manager heard the band, either live or via tape, prior to hiring them. If he doesn't like the way they sound, he shouldn't hire them.

Also, I think a lot of people are thinking in all or nothing terms:

  1. The band doesn't have to be loud to have a good mix. Nothing says the soundman can't get a good mix and then turn it down
  2. Nothing says that good music and good business can't coexist.
  3. As far as musicians swallowing their pride, we shouldn't play jobs where the prerequisite is that we suck.

However, despite all of the excuses and rationalizations about why sound men do what they do, I think it has much more to do with incompetence than being directed by the club owners.
 
#54
lfmn16 said:
Presumably the manager heard the band, either live or via tape, prior to hiring them. If he doesn't like the way they sound, he shouldn't hire them.

Also, I think a lot of people are thinking in all or nothing terms:

  1. The band doesn't have to be loud to have a good mix. Nothing says the soundman can't get a good mix and then turn it down
  2. Nothing says that good music and good business can't coexist.
  3. As far as musicians swallowing their pride, we shouldn't play jobs where the prerequisite is that we suck.

However, despite all of the excuses and rationalizations about why sound men do what they do, I think it has much more to do with incompetence than being directed by the club owners.
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Having played both sides of the mixing desk myself I can assure you that that isn't always the case. There are good, bad, and mediocre sound men just as there are good, bad, and mediocre musicians.

As for not wanting to play jobs where we have to compromise our standards to get the gig, it's precisely why I quit making my living in music many years ago.
 
#55
lfmn16 said:
Presumably the manager heard the band, either live or via tape, prior to hiring them. If he doesn't like the way they sound, he shouldn't hire them.

Also, I think a lot of people are thinking in all or nothing terms:


  1. [*]The band doesn't have to be loud to have a good mix. Nothing says the soundman can't get a good mix and then turn it down
  2. Nothing says that good music and good business can't coexist.
  3. As far as musicians swallowing their pride, we shouldn't play jobs where the prerequisite is that we suck.

However, despite all of the excuses and rationalizations about why sound men do what they do, I think it has much more to do with incompetence than being directed by the club owners.
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Obviously you have never been a soundman.:) The soundman is at the mercy of the band as far as how loud he can be and still get a good mix. You need to adjust your volume levels to the loudest thing onstage.
 
#56
Momma says the house sound man is the devil ...

hesthedevil.jpg
 
#57
prd004 said:
These days when I am playing, I try to let go of the sound and just play. The sound man will do his thing, and if he is skilled, has a good ear and good taste, we will get good sound. If not, we won't and I just try to let it go. (It's hard though)!
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Can Mods make that a Stickie ? Please ??
Or better : instead of the publicity stripes on top here so everybody will see it all the time :p


It's hard to let go , it took me a decade , but I eventualy did. And I enjoy playing bass a lot more now.
 
#59
lfmn16 said:
Presumably the manager heard the band, either live or via tape, prior to hiring them. If he doesn't like the way they sound, he shouldn't hire them.

Also, I think a lot of people are thinking in all or nothing terms:


[*]The band doesn't have to be loud to have a good mix. Nothing says the soundman can't get a good mix and then turn it down
[*]Nothing says that good music and good business can't coexist.
[*]As far as musicians swallowing their pride, we shouldn't play jobs where the prerequisite is that we suck.


However, despite all of the excuses and rationalizations about why sound men do what they do, I think it has much more to do with incompetence than being directed by the club owners.
Click to expand...

Depends on the band. Try getting a 20 piece big band down to the same level as a singer with an acoustic guitar.

Also on personal taste. Different people have different ideas as to what is a good level.
 

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