House Soundman Outed by Digital Technology

[JimmyM]

If you want it badly enough, you can figure out a way to do it.

 

[fingerbun]

Why does their mix have to be screwed over, too? If the band needs heavy bass drum and bass, give it to them but keep it down and work all the other instruments around it. What is so hard about that?

IMHO It's very hard to do a Bass heavy mix when you have a limitation around 85db , particularly if the stage is loud.

It's not hard , it's impossible.

The low end eats all the power and you don't have any room for anything else.
Just a kick alone at OK volume will be louder than 85db ......

If you want it badly enough, you can figure out a way to do it.

...by pulling the low end so it doesn't push the decibels over the edge......

I think this "the boss wants a crappy mix and a wallpaper band" stuff is just a cover story for staff incompetence.

Agree. Sound guy playing God and making a bad decision, possibly necessitated by a bad booking decision.

 

[Bredian]

Yep, they still don't pay me enough to stand there pretty like a photo.... I play for fun and would rather rock out at a pub or a party than lip sync for the extra ...... how much they pay for the torture?

 

[MNAirHead]

Jimmy

Quite sincerely this isnt out of hand it's band 101

Have you been playing the lounge or a paid ticket (or feature act) part of the venue?

85db rule is a guideline- bass travels and is more prominent for the common casino patron

Out of the 100 or so folks I've dine casino gigs with 8-10 "got it". These cats could play at a mouse's db when asked

-----

Overall iem and di are the norm - splitting mixer allows you to let the venue be in control without personally be affected

 

[jaywa]

What was really weird about the casino in question was, when we got there, the stage had four or five big-ass wedge monitors (12-inch drivers) that were part of the house system. We figured we were doing the sound guy a favor by losing the wedges and going with our IEMs. If stage volume was an issue with all of us on IEMs and me running a 150-watt combo 1/3 open, I can't even imagine what the issues must be when other bands get up there with a stage full of wedges firing and a real bass rig.

OTOH, in retrospect maybe we should have gone with the wedges cause then at least there would have been some low end coming off the stage anyway.

 

[MNAirHead]

I know I'm the strange bird on tb

Why not just write out what you have with diagrams and ask the sound guy to tell you the most probable path to success

I'm a nerd manager - I'll send our signal flow and options ahead and ask for help

------

It takes years of tenure to realize the sound guy wins every argument ---- especially when someone else paid and hired him

 

[modulusman]

If you want it badly enough, you can figure out a way to do it.

Yeah by leaving the bass amp at home and using electronic drums.

 

[lfmn16]

Not going to enter a p*ssing contest on resumes. Let's just talk about the technicalities.

Too late.

All of this takes it far beyond the OP's point, which was really just that they were upset because someone else took control of a specific element of the mix, made a decision they didn't like, then lied about it. But, as you may have gathered, I don't totally agree with the point you made.

What about if a fat chick starts dancing right in front of your amp and blocks the sound?

As I said, you can always find exceptions to the rule, but this discussion is about sound men taking a band's sound and putting their own stamp on it.

I'm not talking about making reasonable adjustments to keep the band's sound consistent with their vision; I'm talking about making major modifications to the mix and sound because the sound man likes it a certain way.

Thanks to the people who agreed with me; best of luck to the people who didn't; I'm out of here since I don't think I have anything else to add.

 

[aborgman]

This brings up the point that soundman defenders never seem to come to grasp with: sound engineers are people too, they have their own personal proclivities and preferences. Some of them simply don't like bass-heavy mixes. I'd go as far as to say they prefer distinctly bass-light mixes. But if that doesn't fit your band's desire for how they want to sound, why shouldn't said sound engineer swallow their pride and mix you the way you want to sound?

The soundman should swallow their pride and mix however the person paying the bills wants them to. Quite often that is the venue owner, not the band.

 

[fingerbun]

Too late.

What about if a fat chick starts dancing right in front of your amp and blocks the sound?

As I said, you can always find exceptions to the rule, but this discussion is about sound men taking a band's sound and putting their own stamp on it.

You are just blowing smoke now and I'm not going to waste my time answer each of your scenarios. I don't even know why you think I need to justify my opinion to you. I'm not talking about making reasonable adjustments to keep the band's sound consistent with their vision; I'm talking about making major modifications to the mix and sound because the sound man likes it a certain way.

If you want want to put your artistic vision in someone else's hands, go ahead. If you want to let some knob jockey make decisions for you, that's your business.

When I need schooling, it won't be from you; so save it for someone who cares.

Thanks to the people who agreed with me; best of luck to the people who didn't; I'm out of here since I don't think I have anything else to add.

Peace. If my last post was too aggro i apologize. Tried to stick to facts but was annoyed at the n00b nonsense and maybe it showed.

Your central point. You want the sound to be as you like it.

My central point. The knob jockey HAS the desk and his job is to alter your sound so it is in your interests to make sure he alters it in a direction you choose, which is what you say you want. My "points" were all just examples of this, selected to be well known and cover a range of genres and decades.

I feel like you are trying to dismiss evey example of this as an exception. I don't see that as logical. But it's ok to disagree!!! Maybe I'm wrong.

I think expecting the sound guy to know what you want by magic is like expecting the other musicians to know the notes you want. It only happens if you find people with a similar perspective and communicate with them.

 

[aborgman]

I guess I don't understand why what is best for the band and best for the venue need to clash.

They don't need to, but they might... and preference is HIGHLY subjective.

 

[gnjpowell]

Rule #1: Don't piss off the sound guy
Rule #2: There is no rule #2...

Bassists make the best sound guys!

 

[lfmn16]

My central point. The knob jockey HAS the desk and his job is to alter your sound so it is in your interests to make sure he alters it in a direction you choose, which is what you say you want. My "points" were all just examples of this, selected to be well known and cover a range of genres and decades.

I feel like you are trying to dismiss evey example of this as an exception. I don't see that as logical. But it's ok to disagree!!! Maybe I'm wrong.

One thing I've learned from 40 years of playing - I'm not always right, I just THINK I am. My apologies, I think we are basically on the same page and I appreciate your gracious reply.

Now if I could just learn to count to 10 BEFORE I hit Submit Reply!

 

[JimmyM]

Jimmy

Quite sincerely this isnt out of hand it's band 101

Have you been playing the lounge or a paid ticket (or feature act) part of the venue?

Done both, but mostly as the feature act.

85db rule is a guideline- bass travels and is more prominent for the common casino patron

Out of the 100 or so folks I've dine casino gigs with 8-10 "got it". These cats could play at a mouse's db when asked

-----

Overall iem and di are the norm - splitting mixer allows you to let the venue be in control without personally be affected

It doesn't have to be that way. It only becomes that way after bands with amps turn up way too loud. I have never had that problem, though. I've always been way more about the overall mix than me personally. And most of my problems with soundmen center around them wanting me to be louder or lower in frequencies than I need to be. I sing a lot and I'd much rather be able to hear my vocal monitor onstage than my bass.

 

[Bredian]

This venue also has parking only for Smart Cars, but they're buying semi trucks - hey, have the sound guy deal with it.

 

[fingerbun]

It doesn't have to be that way. It only becomes that way after bands with amps turn up way too loud.

In Australia we have a lot of venues in residential areas, and sometimes they have legally enforced sound level restrictions and neighbours with db meters monitoring and getting ready to complain about any infractions.

Haven't seen it for a while, but there used to be a few venues where the stage power supply was connected to a db meter. Exceed the db threshold for more than a few seconds and it cuts your power. Obviously these were smaller rooms where the band could run off a single phase of power (which in Australia will support 2400W).

Do you get stuff like that in the US?

We became experts at playing without setting these things off, either by keeping the level down or by bringing a long extension lead and taking power from another phase

 

[JimmyM]

Neighbors don't carry db meters but yeah, there are a lot of volume restrictions in the US.

 

[maxiegrant]

. Some of them simply don't like bass-heavy mixes. I'd go as far as to say they prefer distinctly bass-light mixes.

Then they can go mix sound for bass-light bands. ********.

 

[JimmyM]

Then they can go mix sound for bass-light bands. ********.

I don't disagree

 

[Bredian]

Then they can go mix sound for bass-light bands. ********.

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