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House Soundman Outed by Digital Technology
- Thread starter jaywa
- Start date
When you hire the soundtech that is what you should get...
When you are using house sound, they are going to do what is best for the venue.
By the way, what if your sound....sounds like *ss coming out of the PA? should the soundtech let it sound like *ss or fix it......and who is the judge on if it sounds like *ss during your performance??
I guess I don't understand why what is best for the band and best for the venue need to clash. I'm talking about mix, not volume. I have no problem with being told to turn down.
If it sounds like *ss coming out of the PA, then my sound is not being reproduced correctly and it's the sound man's job to make whatever adjustments are necessary to keep that sound consistent through the night.
I guess we could pick apart every one of my statements and examine every possible scenario to try to find one I don't have an answer for, but my point is that the sound man should reproduce the sound that the band is looking for, not change the band's sound to suit his tastes.
If you don't agree with me that's fine but in my old age I'm playing for me and I'm not going to compromise my artistic sensibilities to make a few bucks. I'm fine with the fact that not everybody wants to hear my music and there may be a lot of club owners that don't want to hire me. I'm at the stage where the music is more important than the money.
Just out of curiousity - have you ever mixed anywhere other than your church??? - or for pay???
The reason I ask is, in *many* situations, "a robot" would be preferrable, if at all possible... Try looking at it this way - a band probably wouldn't get hired if they sounded like crap in the 1st place, so it really isn't the soundman's job to make major changes to their sound - just to make it louder out front by using the PA...
I'm basing this on over 30 years of gigging, and over 10 years experience running sound - and owning PA and lights... Now, granted that this doesn't necessarily apply to a casino gig where sound quality isn't the most pressing concern - but to most actual live music venues, I'd say it does apply...
- georgestrings
First, what sounds good is an artistic decision. Who has a better bass tone, Geddy Lee or Paul McCartney? Both respected, both different, you might prefer one or the other but both are valid.
Second, in some cases pure physics. With some amps I need to turn them up to a certain level to get the sound I want. Conversely with upright, nothing sounds as good as my good upright unamplified, but it might not be loud enough. In both cases I have to compromise my ideal sound to get something like it, at a volume that I want.
Thirdly, the sound the band is looking for may not be the sound the venue is looking for. You answered this yourself when you said some venues won't want you and you are not going to compromise. I'm in exactly the same position, but I haven't always been. If you need the money, corporate gigs, casinos, etc are easy working conditions and financially lucrative. After too many nights of dingy bars, driving all night to get to the next gig, hanging around hotel rooms in a strange town waiting for gig time, etc, etc, selling your soul to have easy hours, a nice stage and a food/drink rider starts to look strangely attractive.
Relative to "casino bands"... the first casino gig my band played, was that casino's grand opening weekend and there were several other bands on the bill that weekend.
Two of the bands on that bill with us that weekend, have made repeat appearances since then at that venue and here are the things I noticed those bands had in common (Note: This is in no way a rip on the players in those bands or anyone on this board in a similar situation, just saying what I observed):
- Musicians who were capable (but not outstanding).
- Low stage volume and a minimum of onstage gear.
- Very little stage presence... no real front person and almost no banter with the audience... truly "wallpaper" in that regard.
- A definitively "older" skew both in song selection and band membership.
- Song arrangements played straight down the middle, very "vanilla", with very little embellishment or departure from their recorded versions.
Well, my band pretty much fails 100% on all 5 of those criteria but by now at least we know we're not the casino's cup of tea and we can book accordingly.
Two of the bands on that bill with us that weekend, have made repeat appearances since then at that venue and here are the things I noticed those bands had in common (Note: This is in no way a rip on the players in those bands or anyone on this board in a similar situation, just saying what I observed):
- Musicians who were capable (but not outstanding).
- Low stage volume and a minimum of onstage gear.
- Very little stage presence... no real front person and almost no banter with the audience... truly "wallpaper" in that regard.
- A definitively "older" skew both in song selection and band membership.
- Song arrangements played straight down the middle, very "vanilla", with very little embellishment or departure from their recorded versions.
Well, my band pretty much fails 100% on all 5 of those criteria but by now at least we know we're not the casino's cup of tea and we can book accordingly.
Nowadays it is perfectly possible to have "a robot" do sound if you design for it.
What you say is true in a sense, but not always simple. I imagine for someone like the Stones, U2, RHCP, etc it's fairly straightforward, but take an act like Imogen Heap, the sound tech is an integral part of what she does, since her sound is built around creating and using samples real-time. The sound guy has to know where to put them in the mix.
An another note, have you never struggled with an instrument that you thought sounded bad and trying to find ways to improve it?
It appears I misinterpreted some of the earlier statements in this thread.
I'm not talking about drastic changes to a band's sound.
But you know how if you had two different bass players play the same bassline note for note on the same bass that they'd sound different?
That's mostly what I'm talking about.
Also, sometimes two bass players will play the same bassline but using different fingerings (like playing an open G instead of the 5th fret of the D string, for example). This will also sound slightly different. Like how two different sound guys will attempt to recreate the same sound, but do so in their own way.
When I've talked to other sound techs that I respect, they all seem to share the opinion that the sound board is just as much an instrument as any of the instruments on stage.
Now if the sound man is making the band sound completely different than how they want (especially if they've made it very clear how they want to sound) just because he has his own idea about how it should sound, that's not right.
You are talking about a very specific set of circumstances. This is NOT the norm for a sound man and isn't the situation I'm talking about, or anyone else on this thread, as far as I can tell. If you try hard enough you can ALWAY find an exception to the rule. This thread is about sound men changing a bands sound.
As for the link you provided, save it for the Noobs. I've been playing for 40 years and I've played everything from crappy clubs that hold less than 50 people to outdoor festivals with 5,000 people. I know how to produce the sound I'm looking for in different venues.
I'll sum it up
1-who paid the sound guy?
2-what is the venue's primary business?
3-why would the venue or sound guy care what you wanted/liked?
1-who paid the sound guy?
2-what is the venue's primary business?
3-why would the venue or sound guy care what you wanted/liked?
If you really care about how your band sounds then it is time to man up and drop 10k a decent PA and learn how to run it yourself or hire a soundman.
It's a decible level taken from a decible meter to tell exactly how loud an area is.
The weighting refers to a certain frequency width that the measurement is read in.
Venues that are cautious to excessive noise complaints (Casino's, outside venues. private parties etc.) usually have either a staff member or a personel from the local authority periodically checking the level that the band is playing at.
In many cases where it's the local law autority checking loudness levels they generally give you (1) warning to turn it down....the next time they issue a fine, sometimes to the venue, sometimes to the sound engineer & the venue.
IMO/IME, sound guy is there to get the best sound for the venue given the room acoustics/characteristics, owner/audience preferences, legal restrictions and local sound ordinances restricting dbs for the aural safety of everyone involved. Then, maybe what the band wants or thinks it needs.
All the nuances that TB'rs discuss on TB are pretty much lost on everyone else.
If your band can fit within these limitations, good for you. If you can't, you probably won't be invited back.
Hi.
Not going to enter a p*ssing contest on resumes. Let's just talk about the technicalities.
I cited Imogen Heap because it was an obvious example. But let's face it, the use of samples and sequences in modern music is not uncommon.
I don't know your specific sound and circumstances, so I won't comment on them. But I can offer other examples.
What about Pink Floyd's use of sound effects and surround sound? Think the sound guy needed to be involved in making Roger Water's scream on "Careful with that axe Eugene" go around the room in surround sound?
What about Phil Collins usage of gated reverb to get his distinctive drum sounds on tracks like "In the Air Tonight"? Think that was just the natural sound of an unusual drum kit?
What about how to use compression to tighten things up, EQ to create a nice sonic picture, reverb to make the music sound moist? Think they sent that haunting sax riff on "Baker St" out without processing at the desk?
What about mic selection and placement for specific purposes? Maybe you could tell us the difference between an AKGD112 and a Shure Beta 52 as a kick mic, and which one works better and where you would place it? Or talk about whatever your preferred kick mic is.
What about whether to give a band a natural sound, vs an exaggerated, floor-shaking, doof-doof bass? Or use the low frequency cut on some channels to avoid mud. What is the "right" way here?
A bass goes down to about 30Hz or 40Hz (depending whether it's a 4 or 5). A lot of bass cabs roll of higher, say 50Hz. Should the PA roll off at 50Hz too to reproduce the stage sound, or should it get down to 30Hz?
What about decisions whether to take a bass signal via mic, di or both, and how to blend them? Is there a right answer there? How do you like your bass sound? Is the EQ in FOH the same as what you get through your amp?
What about getting the guitar at the right place in the mix when the guitarist cranks his twin Marshall 100W super leads to the point where the back wall is suffering structural damage because he LOOOOOOVES the sound? What is the right place in the mix, anyway? Not having a go at guitarists here...Roger Daltry and John Entwhistle are reported to have come to blows over Entwhistle's volume levels.
How loud should the drums be in the mix for Diana Krall vs RHCP? Should you be bringing out the natural sound of the kit? Have a listen to the difference in volume of cymbals vs kick vs snare on a sixties vs seventies vs eighties recording? Which is "right"?
Should you take Christian McBride's double bass signal from a mic, a DI fed by his pickups, or a mic on his amp? Which is the sound that should go out there?
If sound were simply a case of making what was onstage louder, then a sound guy could just place one mic to amplify everything. If it were just making it louder and adjusting the levels, then a few microphones and volume controls would be enough. But the racks of outboard gear on any serious PA (which you must have seen at your 5,000 seat festival assuming it was after 1983, which was the first time I did a 5,000 seat room and saw that level of production first hand) attest to the fact that the sound guy is going to change the band's sound, and the band and sound guy need to talk so that it can be done in a way the band like. IF the band have artistic control.
All of this takes it far beyond the OP's point, which was really just that they were upset because someone else took control of a specific element of the mix, made a decision they didn't like, then lied about it. But, as you may have gathered, I don't totally agree with the point you made.
Look, this argument is getting stupid. Of course we know that you have to work within the parameters of the venue that hires you. DUH! But here are two points that should be considered:
1. OK, so they have to be quiet. Why does their mix have to be screwed over, too? If the band needs heavy bass drum and bass, give it to them but keep it down and work all the other instruments around it. What is so hard about that?
B. I have been to many casinos all around the country in the last 13-14 years. I have played many casinos in the last 13-14 years. I have not once in that time heard a band get purposefully screwed over, I have never gotten screwed over, and while I have heard bad mixes before, the vast majority were in the "too quiet" category and not the "no balls" category. I think this "the boss wants a crappy mix and a wallpaper band" stuff is just a cover story for staff incompetence. Most casino bands are actually pretty good for what they do, and I've never heard of a casino that wants their bands to fail so people go gambling instead. Why even have a band in the first place? Nobody ever goes to casinos just to hear a band unless it's a name act.
1. OK, so they have to be quiet. Why does their mix have to be screwed over, too? If the band needs heavy bass drum and bass, give it to them but keep it down and work all the other instruments around it. What is so hard about that?
B. I have been to many casinos all around the country in the last 13-14 years. I have played many casinos in the last 13-14 years. I have not once in that time heard a band get purposefully screwed over, I have never gotten screwed over, and while I have heard bad mixes before, the vast majority were in the "too quiet" category and not the "no balls" category. I think this "the boss wants a crappy mix and a wallpaper band" stuff is just a cover story for staff incompetence. Most casino bands are actually pretty good for what they do, and I've never heard of a casino that wants their bands to fail so people go gambling instead. Why even have a band in the first place? Nobody ever goes to casinos just to hear a band unless it's a name act.
IMHO It's very hard to do a Bass heavy mix when you have a limitation around 85db , particularly if the stage is loud.
It's not hard , it's impossible.
The low end eats all the power and you don't have any room for anything else.
Just a kick alone at OK volume will be louder than 85db ......
