How did Madonna and Michael Jackson write their songs?

[bassliner50]

I don't mean to disregard their talents, but when I listen it is mostly the slick over production that I hear again and again.

 

[Savage_Dreams]

I've always thought Bowie was another interesting case - from what I can tell, his guitar playing was never really stellar, more like strum-along folkie, and he tinkered on piano, but he had a very clear vision of what he wanted to make musically. And not just "simple pop stuff" either, he got quite sophisticated at times, theory-wise. I wonder if any video of any of his recording sessions survives...

bowie isn’t the same situation at all. Besides piano and guitar he also played sax. As for his guitar abilities, he was the only guitarist on the Diamond dogs album. He was better on guitar than what he ever did onstage with it.

 

[Altitude]

Pat Leonard, after Trillion, worked for Zappa, and the Allman Brothers, then toured with Jackson as musical director. He wrote, recorded, and toured with Madonna for years, then formed Toy Matinee with Guy Pratt and Kevin Gilbert. He has since done more work with Madonna and other "A" list artists, too numerous to list here.

I've known Pat since the mid 70's, and there's no doubt in my mind who wrote most of Madonna's, and some of Jackson's music.

I don't know Pat but I do know his work - I loved that album he did with Richard Page in the 90s as well.

You may have info I don't, but as a concept I doubt he or any other producer would be complicit in an artist faking a writing credit, particularly one like Madonna who had so much visibility at that moment. There's too much to lose and a terrible professional precedent to set in an intellectual property business.

More likely Madonna provided enough to claim the credit - lyrics, melody, and maybe rough chord progression - and Pat and his team took it from there. Which is fairly normal; what we hear on albums is very much the sonic design of the producer against a rough sketch provided by the songwriter.

Think of Taylor Swift's first few albums with the Nashville sound. Very unlikely she had the skill or experience at that point in her career to take her songs and make them sound _exactly_ like Nashville pop country was supposed to sound at that moment. Doing that is a highly specialized set of skills that goes to the producer role in most situations.

 

[Altitude]

The songwriter I now record for sells his material to another writer (with connections) - they are listed under the buyers name.

Sure, but different situation. A producer can produce another songwriter's work, or the songwriter can sell the rights to the producer and exit the situation. Whether the songwriter's name remains attached to the IP after the sale is a matter of how the contract is written.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Almost by definition, popular music is neither harmonically nor rhythmically complicated. Irving Berlin, who composed some of the most commercially successful music of the 20th century, never learned to play piano at more than a rudimentary level and preferred to play exclusively on the black keys. In fact, the piano he used to write most of his music was a custom-designed "transposing" upright.

Interesting insight. I love to hear these “behind the curtain” factoids.

 

[oZZma]

Most pop songwriting is a collaborative efforts. How many threads are there here from bassists in original bands who think it's appropriate to develop their own bass lines on songs written by and mate?

A song is melody and lyrics. The rest is arrangement.

Totally disagree.
What a shortsighted view of songwriting. Arrangement is not a separate thing. There are countless famous songs where "melody" and "lyrics" alone are quite irrelevant and the arrangement is what "makes" the song. And there is a huge chance that the vocal line was the last thing they wrote. Is the vocal line the arrangement of the arrangement in this case?
"Arrangement"

 

[dbsfgyd1]

The credits on their albums show them as the sole writer on some of their songs, including their biggest hits.

So, if neither of them played an instrument, isn't it interesting that they got complete songwriting credit for just words and melody? I don't doubt that they probably provided enough melody and maybe even harmony, to suggest the correct chords for the musicians and producers. But I just think this is very interesting.

Don’t forget the lyrics. Having roughed out 300 some odd songs over the last 40 years for writers, the hardest part is setting the optimal rhythm and tempo for the prose. Chuck Berry had a formula (of which I can’t recall) of so many salables a minute. If this is not done correctly, the whole work will sound disjointed.

 

[greenscharlie]

The vocal line and the lyrics make it a song. Its in the word itself.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

The vocal line and the lyrics make it a song. Its in the word itself.

Spot on! The drum part needs to be sympathetic/supportive to the vocal cadence (Hal Blaine). The bass provides the musical reconciliation between the two, as well as a logical track for the chord changes.

 

[Altitude]

Totally disagree.
What a shortsighted view of songwriting. Arrangement is not a separate thing. There are countless famous songs where "melody" and "lyrics" alone are quite irrelevant and the arrangement is what "makes" the song. And there is a huge chance that the vocal line was the last thing they wrote. Is the vocal line the arrangement of the arrangement in this case?
"Arrangement"

This is true, though instrumentalists have repeatedly gotten screwed in the past when their parts became iconic after the fact. Flea got scale, which is currently just under $30/hour and was probably about half that at the time, for recording "Bust a Move" and it's one of the most recognizable basslines of the last 40 years. Lee Sklar is bitter about how widely his bassline from "Stratus" gets sampled and copied.

If you have a strong enough brand that you can negotiate back end in return for doing a session, you do that. Otherwise, you just work.

 

[Polkatronixx]

From what I understand, Lars Ulrich used to contribute riffs to Metallica's 'riff tapes' they'd compile in advance of writing material. He'd hum them and one of the guitar players would figure them out and record them.

I assume Jackson and Madonna wrote lyrics and melodies - songs - whether or not they were able to play an instrument.

 

[Killing Floor]

Also backup musicians generally don’t get writing credit anyway. Here’s the song, need a drum beat isn’t writing the song in legal publication terms.

 

[ElectroVibe]

since for so very long the words and melody were the only copyright-protected parts of a song, i would expect the matter to be as you originally suggested, and not particularly interesting. yet, copyrighted authors are not always the original writers. did not elvis regularly get 50% credit for songs he recorded but did not write?

Someone like Elvis or Sinatra, to me they should deserve writing credit, since they arrange the style in a way that no one else would be capable of.

 

[ElectroVibe]

Here's MJ's demo for Beat It. Nary an instrument to be found.

Very cool. Thanks. That's what I call TALENT. (NOT money, as some have falsely assumed)

 

[Sean Brookes]

Great question. Often thought this myself!

 

[ElectroVibe]

Madonna:

1. How did she use "money" to write her early hits like "Lucky Star" which is pretty harmonically simple.

2. She did not learn to play guitar until the late 1990's. Almost 20 years into her career.

 

[ElectroVibe]

I don't know Pat but I do know his work - I loved that album he did with Richard Page in the 90s as well.

You may have info I don't, but as a concept I doubt he or any other producer would be complicit in an artist faking a writing credit, particularly one like Madonna who had so much visibility at that moment. There's too much to lose and a terrible professional precedent to set in an intellectual property business.

More likely Madonna provided enough to claim the credit - lyrics, melody, and maybe rough chord progression - and Pat and his team took it from there. Which is fairly normal; what we hear on albums is very much the sonic design of the producer against a rough sketch provided by the songwriter.

Think of Taylor Swift's first few albums with the Nashville sound. Very unlikely she had the skill or experience at that point in her career to take her songs and make them sound _exactly_ like Nashville pop country was supposed to sound at that moment. Doing that is a highly specialized set of skills that goes to the producer role in most situations.

Which particular Madonna songs are you talking about specifically? Many of her hits, she has NO writing credit on.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

This is true, though instrumentalists have repeatedly gotten screwed in the past when their parts became iconic after the fact. Flea got scale, which is currently just under $30/hour and was probably about half that at the time, for recording "Bust a Move" and it's one of the most recognizable basslines of the last 40 years. Lee Sklar is bitter about how widely his bassline from "Stratus" gets sampled and copied.

If you have a strong enough brand that you can negotiate back end in return for doing a session, you do that. Otherwise, you just work.

It probably really depends on the song and what the hook is. They gave Anthony Jackson a writing credit for the O'Jays' "For The Love of Money" and rightly so, the bass makes the song.

 

[yodedude2]

Madonna:

1. How did she use "money" to write her early hits like "Lucky Star" which is pretty harmonically simple.

2. She did not learn to play guitar until the late 1990's. Almost 20 years into her career.

"Madonna moved to New York City in 1978 to pursue a career in modern dance. After performing as a drummer, guitarist, and vocalist in the rock bands Breakfast Club and Emmy, she rose to solo stardom with her debut studio album, Madonna (1983)." so sayeth wikipedia.

 

[Altitude]

Which particular Madonna songs are you talking about specifically? Many of her hits, she has NO writing credit on.

I suppose I was talking about whichever ones you meant by saying "The credits on their albums show them as the sole writer on some of their songs, including their biggest hits."