How did Madonna and Michael Jackson write their songs?

[Hummergeist]

The credit thing has always been a problem, hasn't it? Between solo artist and session players, or between band members...Queen solved it by sharing all royalties 4 ways, I think. Then Soul Coughing, who were a great band, were destroyed by disagreements over songwriting credits.

 

[swarfrat]

The real answer is more likely the selling/assigning, and just not crediting supporting parts even if it is the hook that sells the song.

But there are many "faces" who play an instrument well enough to bang out ideas or maybe even strum with their band on the live show, that could never ever cut it in the business on the strength of their instrument.

Despite wanting to be a guitar hero for 30 years, honestly I'm a better singer than I am guitar player. It's entirely likely that were I handed a record deal, that 98-100% of the guitar on my album would be a studio player. Even if I were capable of playing the whole album given enough time, it'd cost a fortune for me to go in and burn up everybody's time to get it down.

Keys? I bang out block chords in C and transpose using the button if need be. If I were a public persona no mention of my playing keys would escape into the media. Yet I sometimes use it in writing.

I suspect that most (at least pre hip-hop) musicians who "don't play an instrument" are at least as much a keyboard player as I

 

[oZZma]

Hey, I'm not saying how it should be, but that's how it is. An arrangement can't be legally protected. If you sing Billie Jean a cappella, that's the song there. Session players who ask for a slice of the publishing don't get invited back.

I misunderstood the tone of your message.
Yeah that's how it is. But lawsuits for plagiarism on riffs happen on a regular basis, for example. So I wouldn't say lyrics and melody are either enough to define a song, or are the only elements protected by law.

BTW imagine being the one who wrote the Billie Jean bassline and not owning any right on it. Wow

 

[micguy]

You get hired by Madonna to help with an album. You sign some papers. One of them stipulates you give up writing credits and royalties.

The check clears. You move on.

 

[Guitalia]

That's interesting. I never would have suspected it. I was just reading that he was advised by a musician friend to not pursue his desire to studying theory and composition, since it might have changed his natural abilities. Probably a very good decision, looking at what great music Berlin composed.

I read a similar story, but about art. James Thurber was a writer who contributed stories and cartoons to the New Yorker magazine for much of its early history. His cartoons tended to be primitive-looking line drawings. At some point, he mentioned to the then-current art director of the magazine that he was thinking about taking art lessons. The art director, aghast, said, "Don't! If you were any good, you'd be mediocre!"

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

The credits on their albums show them as the sole writer on some of their songs, including their biggest hits.

So, if neither of them played an instrument, isn't it interesting that they got complete songwriting credit for just words and melody? I don't doubt that they probably provided enough melody and maybe even harmony, to suggest the correct chords for the musicians and producers. But I just think this is very interesting.

With money

 

[pedroims]

The credits on their albums show them as the sole writer on some of their songs, including their biggest hits.

So, if neither of them played an instrument, isn't it interesting that they got complete songwriting credit for just words and melody? I don't doubt that they probably provided enough melody and maybe even harmony, to suggest the correct chords for the musicians and producers. But I just think this is very interesting.

I am sure MJ played piano, no a virtuoso but good enough to write a song.

Madona probable can play guitar chords.

Jose Alfredo Jimenez, one of the most prolific Mexican songs writers had no musical education. He did not know how to play any instrument and did not even know the terms "waltz" or "tonality", no even knew what key he was singing. He wrote several of the most iconic Ranchera songs that are know by the majority of the people in Latin America.

 

[JPaulGeddy]

That's what always grated on me about Taylor Swift. She seems nice, and talented to a degree - but don't try and tell me she wrote all those songs. At least they finally gave up that pretense on the last couple albums.

 

[Marc61]

Madonna played drums. That we know. I’m sure she played other instruments. Michael Jackson would make demos with vocals using his voice to mimic instruments. Even if in their later careers they could “ buy the credit” they could not have started that way

 

[Bunk McNulty]

How I Write My Songs by Bill B. White

 

[fhm555]

Take a look at Tom Parker if you want to understand how album credits, and the payouts that go hand and glove with those credits, are allocated.
In a nutshell things like that are negotiated during contract talks with labels. Col Tom negotiated himself a portion of producer credit and Elvis a slice of writing credit on every album in their deal with RCA. If a songwriter or producer balked at the situation, they were not used by Elvis.

 

[AaronVonRock]

Here's MJ's demo for Beat It. Nary an instrument to be found.

 

[Hummergeist]

I misunderstood the tone of your message.
Yeah that's how it is. But lawsuits for plagiarism on riffs happen on a regular basis, for example. So I wouldn't say lyrics and melody are either enough to define a song, or are the only elements protected by law.

BTW imagine being the one who wrote the Billie Jean bassline and not owning any right on it. Wow

No worries! And YEAH writing that bass riff for a simple session fee would be a hard one to live with did I not read that George Michael gave his studio bass player a writing credit because he thought the part was so important? That is classy.

 

[4dog]

I know the inside of the industry.

Its common to assign or sell rights. Writer is the cash tree.

There are tunes on the radio that are me. The person who thought they played them is listed on the credits - I am not. The listed player does not know I assisted the producer.

The songwriter I now record for sells his material to another writer (with connections) - they are listed under the buyers name.

The business part is super dirty.

buy the song ..slap your name on as writer??.. i knew it

 

[Dirk Diggler]

And they could have been using Ghost writers and took all the credit themselves.

Amazing what a little cash can do.

Not at all unusual for pop acts.

Dirk

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

I think I read somewhere that if you had Celine Dion record a song you wrote, you had to hand over 50% of the writing credits.

Very early on U2 decided to split their writing credits evenly regardless of who came up with what. What kind-of band would it be if one or two members are stinking rich while the others are essentially for hire?

I also read somewhere that Madonna wanted to learn guitar so she wouldn't have to keep on splitting writing credits.

I have no doubt that these people surround themselves with highly talented musicians, producers and writers to get the job done. They probably have varying degrees of the initial ideas and then the team takes it from there.

 

[Robscott]

How I Write My Songs by Bill B. White
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I've come up with some chords for that - E,A,E,E,A,A,E,E,B,A,E,E. Do I get the credits?

 

[NortyFiner]

Madonna plays guitar live in her shows, and knows at least a little about drums and piano. But her real instruments are her lyrics and her ability to construct the music in her mind. Will she ever win a guitar battle against somebody like Joe Satriani? Only if he lets her. But she knows enough to be able to communicate what she hears in her head to people who are better players than her. And there is nothing wrong with that; in fact, it's pretty darn normal. Do you think classical composers like Beethoven were experts on every instrument in the orchestras and ensembles they wrote for? Of course not. They knew (or imagined) what the instruments sounded like and their musical range, and they put the notes on paper based on what they "heard" in their heads. That communicative relationship between the composer's imagination and the skilled musicians who make it reality, has probably been around as long as music itself.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Most pop songwriting is a collaborative efforts. How many threads are there here from bassists in original bands who think it's appropriate to develop their own bass lines on songs written by and mate?

A song is melody and lyrics. The rest is arrangement.

 

[soulstew]

I've always thought Bowie was another interesting case - from what I can tell, his guitar playing was never really stellar, more like strum-along folkie, and he tinkered on piano, but he had a very clear vision of what he wanted to make musically. And not just "simple pop stuff" either, he got quite sophisticated at times, theory-wise. I wonder if any video of any of his recording sessions survives...

He may not have been a great guitarist, but he came up with one of the killer riffs of all time in Rebel Rebel. I always assumed it was Mick Ronson who came up with that riff, but he says it was Bowie.