But probably more importantly because he was already Anthony Jackson at the time he recorded that, and he was able to demand a writing credit.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
How did Madonna and Michael Jackson write their songs?
- Thread starter ElectroVibe
- Start date
Song writers sell their songs for say $3000 each. The performer lists it as his own (bought and paid for). Very common.
Virtuosos don’t usually have top 10 hits. If you focus on being a player and neglect being a listener, you’re destined to play gigs to rooms of middle aged men in smaller venues... IMO...
Whoever has the melody is going to get credit, and some producers use the expertise of the musicians to flesh out arrangements. In truth, the engineer will most likely get a writer’s credit before the musician... Especially in the current state of the industry.
Or, how about this...
You wrote a song a famous artist wants, but you’re going to have to sell it free and clear.
They hand you $20,000 - $30,000 for the rights and you are a struggling writer.
You will be known to the industry, but that’s it...
But, you have more tunes...
You dig? Word up, bro... Ya feel me?
Read up on Elvis and Dolly Parton for another example... And I won’t even mention hits being traded for drugs or sex. I’ve seen it all... But, the industry ain’t gonna put its business out there for you bruh. You don’t break into it, you’re invited in to it...
Whoever has the melody is going to get credit, and some producers use the expertise of the musicians to flesh out arrangements. In truth, the engineer will most likely get a writer’s credit before the musician... Especially in the current state of the industry.
Or, how about this...
You wrote a song a famous artist wants, but you’re going to have to sell it free and clear.
They hand you $20,000 - $30,000 for the rights and you are a struggling writer.
You will be known to the industry, but that’s it...
But, you have more tunes...
You dig? Word up, bro... Ya feel me?
Read up on Elvis and Dolly Parton for another example... And I won’t even mention hits being traded for drugs or sex. I’ve seen it all... But, the industry ain’t gonna put its business out there for you bruh. You don’t break into it, you’re invited in to it...
Last edited:
Of course. We all know how the industry works.
Which does not make the coarse misconception that "lyrics and vocal melody" ontologically, always make the song true.
Topic o
Absolutely you're right. The industry had to set itself up in some way to account for IP ownership though, and this is how it did.
Honesty... In business? You’ve got a better chance of honesty in politics imo...
There's quite a few "artists" who are functionally illiterate about music. They rely on producers to fully flesh out their ideas. If you have enough star power, you can cut a deal with the producer to retain writing credit. Especially today with DAWs and mono-tonal melodies, you can do a beats rapped lyrics demo really easily. Lay in some sampled music from other folks, and you're on your way to being the latest genius du jour.
This. It's the same way I write my songs. I'm not the world's greatest instrumentalist but I do know how to string some interesting chords together on the piano, program a decent rhythm part, write a melody and play well enough to hand something off to others who can polish it up. If a collaborator takes one of my songs and adds new parts to it or slightly changes it in some significant way, and if I like those changes, I'll give that person an arrangement credit, not a songwriting credit. If they're just playing embellishments to the chords or lines I already wrote and not adding new parts, they just get an instrumental credit.
Last edited:
\
also add to that the fact that most of the act are not even playing there instruments when they are performing.
I heard that R.E.M. decided early on to give songwriting credit to all four of the band’s members (Michael Stipe, Peter Buck, Mike Mills, and Bill Berry) for all of their songs regardless of who actually did the writing for that particular track. Thinking ahead like that was really smart because R.E.M. lasted more than twenty years without much rancor or lineup changes in part because they put their relationships first and they structured things to resist some of the rockstar nonsense that plagues so many famous acts.
Like in todays music. I believe it to be the Producers! I can see MJ,but not Madonna contributing! not a gender thing, but a musicianship thing. i mean i can barely tolerate her singing, but watching mj he was involved in every little thing! Madonna is mostly about Image.
I remember seeing a doc with Tom Kelly and Billy Steinberg telling Madonna's iconic "Like a virgin" bassline was a "mistake" made by a sequencer, it cut the 3rd F note into two single quarters notes instead of playing the intended half one. It is iconic for that song.
And what about the Phil Collins "In the air tonight" drum sound?
Some songs are great with just a voice, guitar or piano, others because of the (maybe over the sky) arrangement, I like both. If the latter stills sounds good when played sober, it really is a great song.
And then there are folks like Elvis, who often didn't write the music or the lyrics.... but still got the songwriting credit.
Even Col. Tom got a few.
Must be nice.
Even Col. Tom got a few.
Must be nice.
Not sure about Madonna, but I’m confident Michael Jackson’s innate musicality made him more than capable of writing the songs he’s famous for. Virtuosity on an instrument is not predictive of songwriting ability.
I also think people confuse writing with arranging or producing a song.
I also think people confuse writing with arranging or producing a song.
There's the theory that only lyrics and melody make a song, and that's it. And then there's James Brown.
I guess all those James Brown funk recordings aren't actually "songs."
I guess all those James Brown funk recordings aren't actually "songs."
From what I saw on some documentaries over the years and heard from some musicians who worked with them over the years, I can maybe glue a bit together, but it's mostly heresy and my own opinion, and assuming what I saw/was told is actually correct.
Michael jackson was well known to have literally created all the parts of the songs he wrote, like the billie jean bass line and to have come up with the basic drum beat (not like it's complicated) for the song, and the main chords of the song's verses and choruses, all in his head and by singing each part to the musicians and to his producer.
Madonna probably did similar stuff but actually could get around a little bit on a couple of instruments, enough to show a bit of what she wanted, and no doubt used song examples and recordings to say, ok, take the bass part from there, the guitar from that line there, etc.
Their PRODUCERS, as is normal in pop music, transcribed that for the musicians and added other things as they went along. In jackson's case it was sometimes jackon who added things by demonstration again, and he was very picky. Madonna sometimes did that, and was very picky also, and even when she let producers add stuff or musicians add parts, she was often the one who had final say about whether those additional changes/parts were going to stay.
Bowie, on the other hand, was a passable keyboardist/pianist and guitarist, as well as an arguably decent sax player. On his earliest work he played all the parts himself, including percussion/drums and bass. So when he wrote everything, he means he wrote everything. Obviously his exceptional musicians would solo and add things, but only with his approval.
So I guess that's how it's done. There are situations though of course where singer songwriters bring in a bassist and just say, ok here's the guitar part, play along. And in my case, I worked with a singer songwriter as a band member for years and years, and pretty much wrote the bass parts, and she was happy about how that worked out.
That being said, I've found that most singers can play at least one instrument alright as a rhythm player.
Michael jackson was well known to have literally created all the parts of the songs he wrote, like the billie jean bass line and to have come up with the basic drum beat (not like it's complicated) for the song, and the main chords of the song's verses and choruses, all in his head and by singing each part to the musicians and to his producer.
Madonna probably did similar stuff but actually could get around a little bit on a couple of instruments, enough to show a bit of what she wanted, and no doubt used song examples and recordings to say, ok, take the bass part from there, the guitar from that line there, etc.
Their PRODUCERS, as is normal in pop music, transcribed that for the musicians and added other things as they went along. In jackson's case it was sometimes jackon who added things by demonstration again, and he was very picky. Madonna sometimes did that, and was very picky also, and even when she let producers add stuff or musicians add parts, she was often the one who had final say about whether those additional changes/parts were going to stay.
Bowie, on the other hand, was a passable keyboardist/pianist and guitarist, as well as an arguably decent sax player. On his earliest work he played all the parts himself, including percussion/drums and bass. So when he wrote everything, he means he wrote everything. Obviously his exceptional musicians would solo and add things, but only with his approval.
So I guess that's how it's done. There are situations though of course where singer songwriters bring in a bassist and just say, ok here's the guitar part, play along. And in my case, I worked with a singer songwriter as a band member for years and years, and pretty much wrote the bass parts, and she was happy about how that worked out.
That being said, I've found that most singers can play at least one instrument alright as a rhythm player.
