how do modes work, really?

[Stick_Player]

Again, my example is not diatonic. As you might have noticed by reading the thread.

Clearly NOT diatonic. I was not understanding why it's on the "How do Modes really work?" thread.

 

[teleharmonium]

Quote:
Originally Posted by teleharmonium
Again, my example is not diatonic. As you might have noticed by reading the thread.

Clearly NOT diatonic. I was not understanding why it's on the "How do Modes really work?" thread.

It's like there's an echo in here ?

It's in the thread because another poster was interested in how to avoid diatonic thinking for non diatonic tunes. As you may have noticed by reading the thread. Sometimes when people talk about something in detail, the conversation turns to alternatives.

If you're mad about the question being asked in the first place, don't blame the answer. Better yet, maybe you can take this opportunity to reevaluate when it is or is not constructive to post.

 

[Stick_Player]

If you're mad about the question being asked in the first place...

Not at all. Your answer ("There is no one mode that will work for the entire progression") implied using changing modes over your set of chords - diatonic or not.

It was confusing at best.

 

[Eric Perry]

Modes work by introducing combinations of intervals that are tonic & different from each other. Lets say the chord of the moment is a maj6. Many Jazz players will start their solo on the 3rd or 7th of the chord of the moment. That immediately introduces an unexpected interval to the listener when the root is sounded by the bass. If the note following the 3rd is the 5th, the listener hears a minor interval which the soloist could not do, in key, when limited to the root of the chord of the moment. Likewise starting on the 7th following it with the 2nd. The audience hears a minor interval played over a major chord. Of course, things often get more complicated than that.

So to partially answer your question, modes work by engaging the audience in unexpected ways that often sound melodic & are in key. You are so accustomed to hearing it, the special nature of what is done doesn't impress you any more. It is there, nevertheless. Listen closely & perhaps write what you heard to better see & hear what is being done. JS Bach is the Father of modal composition. Perhaps you will find some Bach in your Library?

Hope that helps.

I like this explanation, personally.

 

[teleharmonium]

Not at all. Your answer ("There is no one mode that will work for the entire progression") implied using changing modes over your set of chords - diatonic or not.

It was confusing at best.

I did not say, what you are claiming my post "implied", and I specifically contradicted the approach you are saying was implied (reproduced below for posterity, with helpful highlighting).

You're responsible for your own confusion. Of course, we both know you weren't really confused; you didn't pay attention to the whole exchange, you thought you saw something you could correct, and when that didn't pan out, your narcissism was wounded and then you had to find something else to criticize, no matter how flimsy or semantic.

AndyMania, it sounds like you're at a point where you have a handle on diatonic fundamentals and you are ready for the next step.

I would suggest several things - working on some relatively simple non diatonic progressions, and on some songs that are basically diatonic that change keys; and also spend some time just thinking melodically. Don't try to start with a chord or a scale; just listen to the melodic line over the changes. Scale based playing is one method of learning music, but it will never make anyone a great player. It has real limitations and it's just not how most great players think once they have a mature style

I think one of the challenging aspects of learning music for a lot of players is that they start off with diatonic concepts, which is fine and makes sense, but along the way they develop an expectation that those concepts are more encompassing than they are. Learning those puts you at the beginning of something, not the end.

I'll try to offer something simple and specific here to illustrate what I mean. These are just some chords I'm throwing together for this post which I picked out on a guitar. I'm playing simple chords, one per quarter note, in a sort of pop/r&b style.


D |D |C |Bb |D |D |F |F |
D |D |C |Bb |D |D |D |D |

(repeat the first two lines, then do this B section once, then back to the first line once for a typical AABA type of thing ; if this was a real song I was writing, I would probably do something different with a breakdown or a bridge or intro/outro, but this will suffice)

D |Eb6 |D |C#7 |D |Dm/F |Eb7 |D |



for the last section, the top notes for the first 4 chords are F#, G, F#, F, then the Dm\F chord is voiced with an F in the bass and an A on top, and the Eb7 is voiced with a G on top, which descend down to the F# on top of the D major chord (D - A - D - F# low to high).

When I think of melody lines for this, I seem to be finding a scale on D which is like a major or dominant scale from the root up to the fifth, but then it has a b6 and both b7 and major 7th and I'm using a b9 as well as a natural 2nd. It just seems to fit these changes and gives me some sort of middle eastern ideas as well as a way to relate to the simple chromatic line formed by the top notes in that progression as I play them on guitar.

The critical point here is that if you have a set of chords that stick together, you can push against them with a little dissonance and you won't break them. Melody can work against or differently than the chords rather than come from the chords.

This is definitely not a diatonic progression in any one key, but it's not too out there either. Lots of pop songs will stack up major triads in seconds like this one does until there is a III or a bVI which are not diatonic (remember, if you reduce it to triads to give yourself some flexibility, there are still no more than 2 major triads that are one whole step apart in any diatonic key, the IV and then a reduction of the V7 with no 7th interval).

It's got a little more complex stuff in it in the b section, but I'm only using chords with
4 notes each, so it's still more like pop than jazz.

 

[Stick_Player]

I did not say, what you are claiming my post "implied", and I specifically contradicted the approach you are saying was implied (reproduced below for posterity, with helpful highlighting).

You're responsible for your own confusion. Of course, we both know you weren't really confused; you didn't pay attention to the whole exchange, you thought you saw something you could correct, and when that didn't pan out, your narcissism was wounded and then you had to find something else to criticize, no matter how flimsy or semantic.

Thanks for clearing that up. Now we know how Modes work, really.

 

[AndyMania]

My fault Stick Player. I posted a question that maybe should have been a seperate post altogether. Read my initial post to Teleharmonium right before his response and example. It was a little off tangent and it went more along the lines of how to construct a groove/melody and what do I do with all this diatonic fundamentals knowledge....

-Andy

 

[AndyMania]

This is what I asked of Teleharmonium:

Teleharmonium,

Here is my problem. I take a major scale in any Key. Lets use C. I pick any diatonic chord. Lets say Bm7b5. I'll play in this order: B,D,F,A,E. My ear notices that if I start on B and end on E, that sounds like a good note to resolve on. Nice and dark. C works well too. Then I'll take other diatonic chords and play the chord tones in different combinations and inversions and see what kinds of phrases/tonalties I get. I'll try to listen which notes sound conosant and which are dissonant. I try to come up with simple grooves and melodies but they all sound elementary and still kind of sound like Im just playing a C major scale. Its basically just playing the C major notes and chords in random order and seeing what works and what doesnt. I listen to someone like Jaco and there is all this movement and color and wonder exactly how do I come up with interesting melodies and grooves besides just playing Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 in linear fashion up and down.

I just don't know what do with all this knowledge and how to progress. I guess the only thing left is to transcribe music.

 

[Stick_Player]

Here is my problem. I take a major scale in any Key. Lets use C. I pick any diatonic chord. Lets say Bm7b5. I'll play in this order: B,D,F,A,E. My ear notices that if I start on B and end on E, that sounds like a good note to resolve on. Nice and dark. C works well too. Then I'll take other diatonic chords and play the chord tones in different combinations and inversions and see what kinds of phrases/tonalties I get. I'll try to listen which notes sound conosant and which are dissonant. I try to come up with simple grooves and melodies but they all sound elementary and still kind of sound like Im just playing a C major scale. Its basically just playing the C major notes and chords in random order and seeing what works and what doesnt. I listen to someone like Jaco and there is all this movement and color and wonder exactly how do I come up with interesting melodies and grooves besides just playing Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 in linear fashion up and down.

I just don't know what do with all this knowledge and how to progress. I guess the only thing left is to transcribe music.

I'll try to address this.

You said: "I take a major scale in any Key. Lets use C. I pick any diatonic chord. Lets say Bm7b5. I'll play in this order: B,D,F,A,E. My ear notices that if I start on B and end on E, that sounds like a good note to resolve on. Nice and dark. C works well too."

The problem is that you are still in the key of C Major. You can't just pick a chord, such as Bm7b5 and expect to instantly be in B Locrian. You must construct a melody that resolves to the Final of Bº. This Bº HAS to be the home chord. How to do this in a Locrian Mode, not sure. This is probably the most difficult mode to work with. I can't even find any reliable examples.

The Modes can be grouped into three subclasses. Major, Minor, and Diminished. The three Major Modes are Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian. The three Minor Modes are Dorian, Phrygian, and Aeolian. The Diminished Mode is Locrian.

The easier Modes to work with are probably Dorian, Mixolydian, and Aeolian. But I am only guessing. There does seem to be more examples around.

You said: "I try to come up with simple grooves and melodies but they all sound elementary and still kind of sound like Im just playing a C major scale. Its basically just playing the C major notes and chords in random order and seeing what works and what doesnt."

I'd start with the progressions from the examples I posted and see if you can create new melodies or try to improvise over them. Keeping in mind to end the melody on the Final and even starting on the Final. Don't bother with inversions. Avoid 'random'. Compose something. It's not easy, by the way. Start with something you are familiar with and vary it. Stick to triads, forget seventh (or higher) chords for a long while.

And, starting with a C Major chord - in an Ionian or Major Key - and a melody note of E does not make the melody in Phrygian.

You said: "... how do I come up with interesting melodies and grooves besides just playing Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 in linear fashion up and down."

This is the result of attempting to play different so-called Modes over each corresponding chord. Using your example, Dm7 G7 Cmaj7, and playing D Dorian, then G Mixolydian, then C Ionian will give you what you experiencing.

Doing that over a bunch of ii-Vs, or Dominants would give me a headache.

To improvise well, start by singing over the changes - and KNOW the melody (yours or someone else's) - then try to play along with what you singing. If just flail or run scales (or so-called modes), that's what you will sound like.

 

[AndyMania]

Stick Player,

I am going to try real hard to explain to you what exactly my problem is.

I now know after reading this thread that it is inaccurate to call each "sub-scale" of the major scale Ionian, Dorian, Phyrigian, etc.
Rather, it is just playing the same "C" scale with different starting and ending points.

I know that in order to truly hear each Greek mode several factors have to take place which I still have a vague understanding of; a good starting point would be to keep the root the same for each Greek mode; e.g. C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phyrigian, etc. That way I can hear the modes as Richard Lindsey suggested. I understand this now.

I know that triads/7th chords in the major scale are built by stacking 3rds: C, E, G, B, D, F, A, C, ETC.

I know how the entire major scale is mapped out on the entire fretboard and I know all the 12 keys.

I know about connosance and dissonance; tension and resolution.

What I don't know is how to compose a melody.

I can create a very simple melody like: A,C,E,D,G,G# and back to A, but nothing more than this.

I don't know what is meant by "singing over changes" or "playing over chord changes".

When I see a piece of sheet music and I see the written chord harmonies on top and the melody underneath; I notice that the melody notes do not correspond with the written harmonies.
I once saw something written: Cmaj7 on top and the melody notes were something like D, E, G, A. How is that a Cmaj7 chord?

So these are some of the things Im not clear about. How to compose a melody, playing over chord changes, etc. Maybe this should be a seperate post.

-Andy

 

[dvh]

Those notes are all in the Cmaj7 chord. They are also in Gmaj, G7, D maj, D7, more (including minors)... it all comes down to the voicing you want to hear over those notes.

Or am I missing something?

 

[Stick_Player]

What I don't know is how to compose a melody.

I can create a very simple melody like: A,C,E,D,G,G# and back to A, but nothing more than this.

I think you seem to have a good understanding of a lot of things already. Nothing wrong with simple melodies - usually the best ones.

How to compose a melody? How did Mozart or McCartney, Schoenberg or Bootsy? I think each had/has his own way. I'm far from a prolific composer, but when I do 'compose', the melody has been in my mind for days. I rework it, refine, or sometimes forget it.

If I am lucky enough to have something that sticks, the chords/harmony fall into place. As time goes on, I may try different things, but the melody has to be the most important aspect.

I don't know what is meant by "singing over changes" or "playing over chord changes".

That's what an improviser does, he extemporizes over a set of chord changes that are from the composition. For me, the best improvisers are the most melodic.

Take your example of ||: Dm7 | G7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||

Round it and sing whatever the chord changes inspire you to sing. Then play an instrument trying to play exactly what you sing. Make it up... maybe something will come from it that turns into a tune. Try different styles. You'll probably find that you mostly use pentatonic scales or groups of pitches. You might even come up with lyrics.

When I see a piece of sheet music and I see the written chord harmonies on top and the melody underneath; I notice that the melody notes do not correspond with the written harmonies.
I once saw something written: Cmaj7 on top and the melody notes were something like D, E, G, A. How is that a Cmaj7 chord?

Usually, when one sees a chord, in a lead sheet, that is the harmony for that measure or given amount of beats.

Depending on many factors, the melody that you suggested (D, E, G, A), could be supported by many different harmonies. Phrase, rhythm, style dictate a lot of what the harmony might be.

There is the whole world of reharmonizing or substitutions available, too.

So these are some of the things Im not clear about. How to compose a melody, playing over chord changes, etc. Maybe this should be a seperate post.

Too late for that.

 

[AndyMania]

DVH,

When I see a chord notated as "Cmaj7", I thought that the only notes you can use on the melody line are C, E, G and B. This is one of the things that confuse me. When I see a II, V I progression in the key of C major, I thought the only notes I can use are:

D,F,A,C,E,G,B,D,F,C.

Maybe you can understand my confusion. I played drums for 15 years and changed to bass a year ago. These concepts are still quite new to me.

 

[Stick_Player]

When I see a chord notated as "Cmaj7", I thought that the only notes you can use on the melody line are C, E, G and B. This is one of the things that confuse me.

No. Depending on the key you are in, that would dictate other notes you might use, most likely as either extensions or passing tones.

Key of C Major, the Cmaj7 is the I chord - use a C Major scale.
Key of G Major, the Cmaj7 is the IV chord - use a G Major scale.
Key of A Minor, the Cmaj7 is the III chord - use an A Natural minor scale.
Key of E Minor, the Cmaj7 is the VI chord - use an E Natural Minor scale.

The Cmaj7 chord is also in the Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian Modes.

Depending on the key, there are a whole bunch of Pentatonics available.

The chromatic scale is also available.

It all depends on what precedes or follows this Cmaj7. In other words, its function.

When I see a II, V I progression in the key of C major, I thought the only notes I can use are:

D,F,A,C,E,G,B,D,F,C.

Maybe you can understand my confusion. I played drums for 15 years and changed to bass a year ago. These concepts are still quite new to me.

See the above list.

 

[AndyMania]

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[AndyMania]

ok.....something is finally starting to click.......

So a Cmaj7 chord cannot exist in the key E since the key of Emajor only has a C# and no C natural right?

 

[AndyMania]

Now I understand what is meant by function.

 

[AndyMania]

So in D Dorian mode, Cmaj7 is the VII chord of D Dorian right?

 

[azfryguy]

I was in your same position. My band was playing a modifed version of Bye Bye Miss American Pie. We wanted it a up beat and faster and harder! So for one of the main parts it was in G Major and since we wanted it more rock I played a walking bassline D Mixolydian. To give it more personality. Modes are different ways of playing the same notes and you get different sounds out of said notes.

 

[Stick_Player]

ok.....something is finally starting to click.......

So a Cmaj7 chord cannot exist in the key E since the key of Emajor only has a C# and no C natural right?

Do you want the easy answer?

First, the Key Signature of E Major has 4 sharps - F#, C#, G#, and D#.

The scale would be: E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E.

Therefore, a Cmaj7 (C, E, G, B) does not exist within the series of notes from E Major.

However...

The Parallel Minor key of E Major is E Minor. The Key Signature of E Minor has 1 sharp - F#.

The scale is: E, F#, G, A, B, C, D, E.

A Cmaj7 exists in this key - AND - can be 'borrowed' from E Minor and used in the key of E Major.

This chord is also in the E Harmonic Minor scale, as well.

E, F#, G, A, B, C, D#, E.

Borrowing from a parallel Mode can also occur.

Parallel Modes of E Major that contain a Cmaj7 chord: E Phrygian, E Aeolian.

There might be more...