how do modes work, really?

[AndyMania]

Stick Player,

What have I got myself into...........

 

[AndyMania]

Hold up Stick.......How can E Ionian have a C natural??? Its the same scale as a major scale no?

 

[Matthew_84]

So wait, you can "borrow" almost any chord from a parallel mode and implement into your progression? I understand not all chords could work, I couldn't be in A lydian and use a Dmaj7 chord because there is no natural D in A lydian right (it'd be D#)? But if my first chord was A7 and the mode is mixolydian, then my next chord could be a Dmin7, which would be taken from A Aeolian?

 

[Stick_Player]

Hold up Stick.......How can E Ionian have a C natural??? Its the same scale as a major scale no?

Oops! Good eye! You are correct. NO, E Ionian is NOT a possibility.

I fixed, that.

Thanks!

 

[Stick_Player]

So wait, you can "borrow" almost any chord from a parallel mode and implement into your progression? I understand not all chords could work, I couldn't be in A lydian and use a Dmaj7 chord because there is no natural D in A lydian right (it'd be D#)? But if my first chord was A7 and the mode is mixolydian, then my next chord could be a Dmin7, which would be taken from A Aeolian?

You're going to need more than a "first chord" to establish a key.

But, if you have FIRMLY established that you are indeed in A Lydian and you use a Dmaj7 and return to A Lydian, yes you'd be borrowing the Dmaj7 chord - unless you've modulated to a different key. You need more harmonic information.

Same thing with your 2nd example, a single A7 doesn't establish a Key or a Mode. And, A7 to Dmin7 doesn't establish much either. Sounds more likely that you are in D Minor and the A7 is the Dominant Seventh (from D Melodic Minor or D Harmonic Minor).

You'll need a whole set of changes, enough to establish a tonal center, then substitute some of these with borrowed chords. They may work or not.

 

[Matthew_84]

Yeah, I understand that it won't necessarily sound good. And I do follow that I have to firmly establish the tonal centre because if I don't then throwing in a borrowed chord will likely change what the tonal centre is.

But I still don't quite understand how I could place a Dmaj7 chord in an A lydian mode. Wouldn't that make it sound more like A ionian?

My knowledge in general about establishing the tonal centre could also be improved, like the relationships between the chords and the root. I sometimes read posts about how a certain progression was written to be in one key is actually more related to another, and I don't understand how you could read a set of chords and figure that out without listening to them.

You need more harmonic information.

I certainly do. Is there any books or anything I should read up on to help build my understanding of harmony? As well as chord relations, tension and resolution?

Many thanks, I really do appreciate all of the information and guidance.

 

[Stick_Player]

... But I still don't quite understand how I could place a Dmaj7 chord in an A lydian mode. Wouldn't that make it sound more like A ionian?

If it does make the key sound Ionian, then you were either not well established in A Lydian or you have modulated.

I certainly do

I didn't mean that YOU needed more information, I meant that whomever is analyzing the chord progression needs more harmonic information (more chords) to identify a key.

 

[Matthew_84]

Lol, Stick Player I knew what you meant, but I flipped it around because I have a whole bunch of stuff I still want to learn. There really is a bit of an issue with learning scales and modes and chords based off of them when you aren't taught any other theory, because in my experience, it's caused my knowledge of theory to be solely based on diatonic notes, and anything else just doesn't seem right although it can sound great.

How'd you learn all of this stuff? Just from studying many different songs and progressions?

 

[AndyMania]

If I have a ii V I cadence in C major.............

ii= Dmin7. Dmin7 can equal: D,F,A,C
C,D,F,A
F,A,C,D
A,C,D,F

V= G7. G7 can equal: G,B,D,F
B,D,F,G
D,F,G,B
F,G,B,D

I= CMaj7. Cmaj7 can equal: C,E,G,B
E,G,B,C
G,B,C,E
B,C,E,G

Now I noticed their is a different tonal quality when I play chords starting on different intervals; Playing a Cmaj7 chord with starting on the B sounds dark compared to playing it in root position like C,E,G,B.

So its still valid to use any of these combos for ii V I?

 

[Matthew_84]

Yes, I *think* they're called inversions (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Also, you don't have to ascend, you can also descend (C, A, F, D for Dmin7). And you don't have to play all four notes in each chord. For example, in the progression ii V I, you could just simply play an A for the Dmin7, an F for the G7, and an E for the Cmaj7. I don't know if the notes I used would sound good in that progression and how it would affect it's resolution, it was really just an example to show you that you can play one note if you like and it doesn't have to be the root. You don't have to play all four chord tones, even one, two, or three is okay. It's up to you. Just try different things and select which combination your ears like the most.

 

[Stick_Player]

If I have a ii V I cadence in C major.............

ii= Dmin7. Dmin7 can equal: D,F,A,C
C,D,F,A
F,A,C,D
A,C,D,F

V= G7. G7 can equal: G,B,D,F
B,D,F,G
D,F,G,B
F,G,B,D

I= CMaj7. Cmaj7 can equal: C,E,G,B
E,G,B,C
G,B,C,E
B,C,E,G

Now I noticed their is a different tonal quality when I play chords starting on different intervals; Playing a Cmaj7 chord with starting on the B sounds dark compared to playing it in root position like C,E,G,B.

So its still valid to use any of these combos for ii V I?

Yes, as Matthew_84 says, you are creating Inversions.

A great technique for better voice-leading.

You'll see these noted on a lead-sheet like this:

Cmaj7/E - called First Inversion - this notes that E is the lowest note or to be played by a bass instrument.

Cmaj7/G - called Second Inversion - this notes that G is the lowest note or to be played by a bass instrument.

Cmaj7/B - called Third Inversion - this notes that B is the lowest note or to be played by a bass instrument.

By using the "/" you are indicating a given chord over a specific bass note.

You can use this labeling technique to indicate ANY chord with specific bass (lowest) note.

Examples:

G/F - G, B, D over F bass

D7+5/F# - D, F#, A#, C over F# bass

If you are going to use Roman Numerals, the inversion is indicated by a subscript(s) and can get rather involved.

If you see this: I6​ - it indicates that the Tonic is in First Inversion. The subscript 6 is used to indicate that the interval from the lowest note (E) to the highest note (C) is a Sixth - using a C Major triad.

 

[JTE]

Yes, I *think* they're called inversions (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Also, you don't have to ascend, you can also descend (C, A, F, D for Dmin7). And you don't have to play all four notes in each chord. For example, in the progression ii V I, you could just simply play an A for the Dmin7, an F for the G7, and an E for the Cmaj7. I don't know if the notes I used would sound good in that progression and how it would affect it's resolution, it was really just an example to show you that you can play one note if you like and it doesn't have to be the root. You don't have to play all four chord tones, even one, two, or three is okay. It's up to you. Just try different things and select which combination your ears like the most.

Well, technically, "inversion" only means which note is in the bass and it's not the same as "voicing". That means that whether the CMaj7 is voiced E G B C, E C G B, E C E G B, or E C C G G C C G, it's still first inversion.

But you're on the right track. Like scales, just thinking of chords from the root up is great for learning about them, but that's not what makes music. Music comes first then the analysis. The point of knowing the chord tones is that way you KNOW what's going on. Many times all you need to play are the root and fifth, and you can play other notes than chord tones as passing tones. It's like a painter's pallet- the notes are your choices, but how you choose to use them is at your discretion.

The main tones for any chord remain the root and fifth because those notes tell everyone what chord it is. The C and G define it as a C chord. Now even if the guitarist is playing C E and G, if I play an A and E in the bottom, it's more likely to be heard as an Amin7 (ACEG) than a C Maj (CEG)- that's the beauty of the power of bass...

There's a hierarchy to this you should understand-
The root and 5 define the essential harmony of the chord.
The third tells you whether it's minor or major
The 7th tells you whether it's a dominant (if the 7 is flatted) or a major 7 (both in conjunction with the third),

 

[AndyMania]

JTE,

I thought that the 3rd and 7th are what gives the chord its meat. Not the root and fifth. I heard some people say the 5th is not that important.

 

[AndyMania]

So what is meant by voicing? I tried playing a Dmin7 chord in C major by playing
F,A,C,D,F. iT DEFINITELY had a more of a F major sound since I started on the F. And I also discovered that the finger pattern was a F major pentatonic scale. (if I included the G)

Then I tried playing the G7 by starting of the 3rd and playing B,D,F,G which sounded half-diminished since I started on B I guess.

Then I tried going back to the tonic C and played it as B,E,G,C. Resolving on C did not sound as good as just stopping on E.

This was my ii V I experiment for today.

 

[Stick_Player]

So what is meant by voicing? I tried playing a Dmin7 chord in C major by playing
F,A,C,D,F. iT DEFINITELY had a more of a F major sound since I started on the F. And I also discovered that the finger pattern was a F major pentatonic scale. (if I included the G)

Then I tried playing the G7 by starting of the 3rd and playing B,D,F,G which sounded half-diminished since I started on B I guess.

Then I tried going back to the tonic C and played it as B,E,G,C. Resolving on C did not sound as good as just stopping on E.

This was my ii V I experiment for today.

Try this progression:

The A7 will help make the Dm7 sound like a ii7​ chord instead of an F6.

You'll notice the 'smooth' downward movement of the pitch-order of the chords - this is what voicing means - order of pitches or notes.

Even with all the chromatic 'borrowed' notes you stay in C Major.

You could round/repeat the first two measures ad nauseum and try to improvise over the top.

 

[AndyMania]

Stick,

The link didnt show up. See above

 

[Stick_Player]

Stick,

The link didnt show up. See above

Should be visible now.

 

[JTE]

JTE,

I thought that the 3rd and 7th are what gives the chord its meat. Not the root and fifth. I heard some people say the 5th is not that important.

Depends on context. For guitarists, keyboards, etc. and for soloing, the 3 and 7 give you the essential chord because they're expecting that the bass is supplying the 1 and 5. See, if you just play the 3 and b7 of a C7 chord (E and Bb) it could be 3 and b7 of C7, but it could just as easily be the b7 and 3 of Gb/F# (that's where a common chord substitution comes from). The meat is the 3 and 7 because the foundation (the "bone", to continue the food metaphor) is the root and 5.

Note that the root and fifth are the elements of the mis-named "power chord" too- just roots and fifths without any thirds to mess up the distorted overtones, nor to tell you clearly whether it's major or minor.

That's the difference between playing bass and and learning music in the abstract.

John

 

[JTE]

So what is meant by voicing? I tried playing a Dmin7 chord in C major by playing
F,A,C,D,F. iT DEFINITELY had a more of a F major sound since I started on the F. And I also discovered that the finger pattern was a F major pentatonic scale. (if I included the G)

Then I tried playing the G7 by starting of the 3rd and playing B,D,F,G which sounded half-diminished since I started on B I guess.

Then I tried going back to the tonic C and played it as B,E,G,C. Resolving on C did not sound as good as just stopping on E.

This was my ii V I experiment for today.

If you're playing these as single-note arpeggios, it's takes a lot of will to make yourself HEAR the Dmin when you've voiced it with the F in the bass. See, Dmin7 is the same notes as F6. Now if you're singing the notes FUNCTION to yourself you can teach yourself to hear the F as the third even if it's on the bottom. But a better way is to use a chordal instrument- keys work better than guitar but I use guitars because I have 'em and I can play 'em but I don't have a keyboard...

"Voicing" is simply what order all the notes are in. So, voicing a Dmin7 a D F A C is a different voicing than D A C F, than F D A D A C F, etc.

To make the Dmin7 in first inversion (with the 3rd in the bass) sound like Dmin7 instead of F6, you need a context. If the Dmin7 is preceded by C and followed by Bb, it's going to sound like an F major chord. But if it's preceded by Amin7 then followed by G7 you'll hear the resolution of fourths (A to D to G). It also depends on the melody.

John

 

[Matthew_84]

You guys are awesome, all of this info is incredibly helpful. Thanks guys